ChaiJoe17
New Member
If we had the money for both (Kipling to Airport vs. Keele-Dufferin and/or Jane), which would make more sense as a separate line, and which as an extension of the OL?
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- Thread starter thettctransitfanatic
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Bureaucromancer
Active Member
Setting aside that I think branching the OL would work given light metro frequency and the demand on these lines, I’d absolutely lean toward the inner route being the independent one. The strategic implications of some of the one or two seat rides that direct Renforth / downtown connection creates (let alone the possibility of a single seat ride to Mississauga centre) just seem a lot more powerful than whatever the damage a transfer at the south end of the inner line would cause.
I’d also add that building for branching now certainly doesn’t have to mean they couldn’t be separated later with either a transfer or a second downtown crossing.
One of the things I'm working on in my latest fantasy map is basically turning the Milton Line west of Kipling into the western extension of the Ontario Line. It's one of the only lines that isn't slated to be upgraded to RER, and given how difficult CP can be, jumping into and out of the CP corridor (based on ROW width and trip generators) is something that the OL technology could do quite well.
Here's a snapshot of the map. From east to west, here's the alignment:
Gardiner Expy median -> jumps over to the Milton Line corridor at Sherway (with connection to extended Bloor-Danforth Subway) -> CP corridor to just west of Hurontario -> New tunnel to Mississauga Centre -> Assume Mississauga Transitway ROW west of Mavis
From there, the line splits, with one branch using the Milton Line corridor until Lisgar, and another uses the Mississauga Transitway corridor and 407 ROW to a new terminal at Trafalgar (Oakville Gateway). A small spur would branch off to serve Erindale Station, which would otherwise be off the line.
The portion of the line out to Milton would be diverted onto a new GO rail corridor parallel to the 407, connecting to the Georgetown corridor just east of Bramalea.
Here's a snapshot of the map. From east to west, here's the alignment:
Gardiner Expy median -> jumps over to the Milton Line corridor at Sherway (with connection to extended Bloor-Danforth Subway) -> CP corridor to just west of Hurontario -> New tunnel to Mississauga Centre -> Assume Mississauga Transitway ROW west of Mavis
From there, the line splits, with one branch using the Milton Line corridor until Lisgar, and another uses the Mississauga Transitway corridor and 407 ROW to a new terminal at Trafalgar (Oakville Gateway). A small spur would branch off to serve Erindale Station, which would otherwise be off the line.
The portion of the line out to Milton would be diverted onto a new GO rail corridor parallel to the 407, connecting to the Georgetown corridor just east of Bramalea.
FW36
Active Member
What if the Ontario Line is extended towards Jane and then Pioneer village station. It could lessen pressure from the Jane bus.
UrbanDan
Active Member
If the OL is to go north to Jane st. I believe the best route would be for it to go more west and after High Park follow South Kingsway and Jane.
Roncesvalles already has a streetcar which will connect this neighborhood to both line 2 and OL. Keeping the streetcar tracks here also might make sense as the streetcar storage and maintenance facility is there.
In a perfect world where transit in Toronto is a priority, perhaps the best option would be for Ontario Line to go west to Humber Bay Shores, connecting it to the new Go station and then continue along Queensway. However, to also have a higher order transit along Jane/South Kingsway in order to connect to Ontario Line, Line 2, Line 5.
sixrings
Senior Member
Thank you for thinking of Mississauga. We appreciate the thoughts and prayers.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
...after Mississauga is annexed by Toronto, then the rapid transit lines will be extended west.
sixrings
Senior Member
I have no problem trading in Bonnie for Johnnie and his smart track.
toaster29
Active Member
It is nonsensical to me why nobody has decided to modify the Milton line to RER, especially within Toronto. Kipling to Union should be all day service with high frequency, the amount of time saved for people who could avoid the hour long trip via subway here.
sixrings
Senior Member
The 3rd busiest GO line doesn’t deserve a 8 billion dollar fix. That said we casually throw billions at Scarborough subway projects and Yonge extensions.
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Sunnyside
Active Member
Isn't this because the Milton line runs on CP's mainline? I always saw the Milton line as a non-starter because it only exists as compensation for an accident on CP's end. That raises a few questions though, and the fact that the line exists brings in a lot of questions for improvement. Shouldn't we have access to more of CP's tracks rather than just to Milton (full midtown corridor)? As the missing link project is on ice, why couldn't we just add two tracks to the Milton corridor and operate near-independently from CP? How much freight traffic is actually present on this mainline? Are Milton line improvements even the way to go? Without new parallel trackage being built, I imagine rerouting Milton tracks closer to MCC is on the table, but at that point, we may as well fund a Line 2 extension or something.
Either way, the Mississauga transit question needs to be addressed sooner or later. The 30-year transportation plan does not address all the city's needs, with neither the Ontario Line West nor 407 LRT/light metro addressing the transit woes of Mississauga. It's hard to believe that connectivity to Toronto's main western suburb remains supported by BRT and commuter rail only, while its eastern equivalent (Scarborough) has Line 2 extensions, line 5 extensions, Stouffville and more. This is off-topic however and is better suited to a different thread.
The fact that we see so many potential routes for an OL West shows just how far behind we actually are in transit planning and infrastructure as a whole. I have grown fond of the transportation plan's 407 LRT/light metro and even the Ontario Line inner loop, with either of the routings being just fine in terms of connectivity. Operationally, keep the 90-sec OL frequency between Pearson and, say, Don Mills/Sheppard and go from there as to improve service on the rest of the route. We can probably justify frequencies like that considering the transit drought in areas this will over. I think the reality is we need multiple different light metro lines, not just the preferred OL west or Dufferin-Keele. We probably need a Dufferin subway, a Jane LRT/light metro, and more still. It is clear that the government sees a dire need for a Line 2 Reliever that is far west at Kipling (as proposed) with more airport connections, peripheral connections and better N/S connectivity out west in general. What I am curious about is how there have been no calls for a Dufferin subway independent of OL plans, since it clearly serves a different market from the supposed Etobicoke alignment. I am glad we are building infrastructure that has been long-needed, but there are clearly many corridors that are not receiving the attention they deserve, even if only on a planning level. There is a difference between recognizing a transit need and not fulfilling it due to lack of funds, and not addressing it at all because of the lack of funds. We should have a clear endgame in mind, even if the financing isn't quite there yet.
Yes, the Milton Line runs on CP's main freight corridor, which is the main obstacle to any kind of improved service on the corridor. This is why I proposed to use Ontario Line technology to replace the current GO service. The type of metro technology that the OL will use can share rail corridors where it needs to (see the OL Phase 1's use of the Lakeshore corridor around Exhibition, and between East Harbour and Gerrard), but also has the flexibility to run in tunnels or elevated when needed. This would be particularly useful for a connection to Square One, which is one of the obvious missed opportunities of the current Milton Line alignment.
For what it's worth, I think it would be worth using OL technology as a replacement for the Richmond Hill line as well.
On a higher level, I see the OL becoming a BART-like transit backbone for the GTHA. It can use existing rail corridors in some areas to save on costs, but it isn't bound to them like GO RER is. The Phase 1 portion of the line is a lot like the BART backbone through SF. Where it goes beyond that is wide open, but that backbone needs to be in place for the system to work. It can work in tandem with GO RER, reaching places that GO RER can't go due to the likely rolling stock that it will use (at least for the foreseeable future).
For what it's worth, I think it would be worth using OL technology as a replacement for the Richmond Hill line as well.
On a higher level, I see the OL becoming a BART-like transit backbone for the GTHA. It can use existing rail corridors in some areas to save on costs, but it isn't bound to them like GO RER is. The Phase 1 portion of the line is a lot like the BART backbone through SF. Where it goes beyond that is wide open, but that backbone needs to be in place for the system to work. It can work in tandem with GO RER, reaching places that GO RER can't go due to the likely rolling stock that it will use (at least for the foreseeable future).
Bureaucromancer
Active Member
The big question in my mind about Mississauga is whether it wouldn’t make more sense for the OL to parallel the transitway than Milton. For all the talk of a 407 line, my inclination is that coming down the 427 and then following the transitway probably makes more sense than continuing on the 407 through Brampton north of the airport.
for that matter, we can then look at a true loop as the first phase, connecting directly to Eglinton and the Transitway at Renforth with extension into Mississauga proper following later.
I agree wholeheartedly that we really do need something BART like as a regional spine away from the heavy rail corridors. More or less GO ALRTs northern corridor in other words.
for that matter, we can then look at a true loop as the first phase, connecting directly to Eglinton and the Transitway at Renforth with extension into Mississauga proper following later.
I agree wholeheartedly that we really do need something BART like as a regional spine away from the heavy rail corridors. More or less GO ALRTs northern corridor in other words.
I think you do both. OL will be running at some pretty high frequencies, so halving that frequency west of Mississauga Centre will still result in some pretty good headways. One branch continues west along the Transitway alignment (replacing it), while the other continues parallel to the CP corridor up to Lisgar. This way, most of Mississauga has a direct connection to MC one way or another.
East of Mississauga Centre, the rest of the Transitway can be turned into an extension of the ECLRT, with the potential to run the FWLRT along there too (if a connection is being made between Renforth Gateway and the Pearson, and the FWLRT is run to Pearson, building the Renforth trackage as a full wye would allow for FWLRT trains coming from the airport to continue westward). This would in effect provide a direct LRT connection between MC and Pearson, as well as between MC and Midtown Toronto.
afransen
Senior Member
I think Milton GO is not completely off-topic for OL westward extension as they would tend to overlap.
I wonder if, we can't come to some accommodation with CP, would it make sense the replace Milton GO with more of a light metro approach, in the CP ROW. Looking at the ROW, much of it has room for additional tracks. I can see there are concerns in places about access for CP to both sides of the ROW. Would it make sense then just to elevate the guideway where required by CP, or where the ROW is too narrow for 2 additional tracks.
Would it make sense for the Milton line to be replaced by OL West extension? Only problem then is that Milton Line would not go to Union, and would funnel passengers into Exhibition, etc. Making connectivity to the rest of the GO network a bit iffy. It would also need to go all the way to Milton to ensure Milton doesn't lose service. Obviously that line would not warrant the same kind of frequency seen on the core of the OL, so a branch up to the airport/Union West along the 427 via Kipling could make sense. Milton to Toronto is a bit of a long haul on more subway-type rolling stock for passenger comfort. The advantage of using OL rolling stock is that the Milton Line can actually have a station at Mississauga Centre. Cooksville should be retained but a tunnel or elevated alignment up Confederation Parkway, along Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and back in the CP ROW thereafter.
I wonder if, we can't come to some accommodation with CP, would it make sense the replace Milton GO with more of a light metro approach, in the CP ROW. Looking at the ROW, much of it has room for additional tracks. I can see there are concerns in places about access for CP to both sides of the ROW. Would it make sense then just to elevate the guideway where required by CP, or where the ROW is too narrow for 2 additional tracks.
Would it make sense for the Milton line to be replaced by OL West extension? Only problem then is that Milton Line would not go to Union, and would funnel passengers into Exhibition, etc. Making connectivity to the rest of the GO network a bit iffy. It would also need to go all the way to Milton to ensure Milton doesn't lose service. Obviously that line would not warrant the same kind of frequency seen on the core of the OL, so a branch up to the airport/Union West along the 427 via Kipling could make sense. Milton to Toronto is a bit of a long haul on more subway-type rolling stock for passenger comfort. The advantage of using OL rolling stock is that the Milton Line can actually have a station at Mississauga Centre. Cooksville should be retained but a tunnel or elevated alignment up Confederation Parkway, along Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and back in the CP ROW thereafter.