afransen
Senior Member
Isn't that a bit redundant?
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- Thread starter thettctransitfanatic
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nfitz
Superstar
That's 3 of the most overcrowded stations on the system. I don't think combining them helps.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
I was talking about on Dufferin.
nfitz
Superstar
Fair enough. Though transfers to streetcar would be tough without stations. I think there needs to be a King station, Queen is tough with the railway crossing (aka the Queen subway!). I'd be tempted to bend a bit to the east.
It's only 300 metres from Dundas to College, so one station in there. At the same time, you need something in front of Dufferin Mall.
Ward8
Active Member
John Lornic wrote a good article in the west end phoenix about the Dufferin bus that is relevant to the discussion here. I can't link the article, but some of the key points are: The 29 is at 96 percent of pre-pandemic capacity, one of the highest in the network. The corridor is seeing enormous development pressure and huge population increases. They are currently running busses at 4 minute headways, including a large fleet of articulating busses. And apparently reducing the headways by another 60 seconds would result in an unsustainable financial model due to the higher operating costs of busses. There is a RapidTO thing happening, but it is mostly limited to minor tweaks with regards to signal priority and improved lay by areas. There is definitely a clear case for improved rapid transit on the corridor - Ontario Line or something else entirely.
Sunnyside
Active Member
The alignment of the Ontario line seems like it will largely be dictated by what we (the Ontario Government) want it to do/to be. A Dufferin subway is frankly a no-brainer; we have a smorgas board of alignment options for new downtown subways because we likely need more than just one. However, as a provincial project, there is an incentive for the Ontario Line to serve a wide catchment area and act as a connector service rather than one that will primarily be generating its own ridership along the route. It will certainly do this, but not in the same way as, say, Line 1 or 2 which have local users and transfer riders. The reality is, there are some things which are true about the Ontario Line:
1. It will relieve Lines 1, 2 and 5 (transferring to line 1 primarily)
2. It will relieve Union station from some GO riders via Exhibition and East Harbour
3. It will partially relieve the 501 Queen streetcar
4. Relief of Bloor/Yonge and possibly Yonge/Eglinton
But this is it. The OL is more of a relief service than the Relief Line itself, with more connections and stations but less local connectivity and contiguity. That's all well and good, but it gives insight into the design logic of the Ontario Line. Fast forward to the 2051 plan and there is a clear intention to connect at Kipling somehow, then the airport, and circle around a loop and connect the simpler Northeast Don Mills segment. This makes it clear to me that the OL is going to primarily function as a relief line for the entire network, rightly or wrongly, by connecting at Kipling to divert the Mississagan volumes. With that in mind, the Humber bay alignment seems inevitable. It probably won't duplicate all of LSW, but the OL will be very functional and transfer-oriented. This has been made clear by the various design decisions on the line's route.
As mentioned before, the local contiguity of the alignment is inferior to the relief line, because it does not linearly follow Queen street. Well, this is where that functional component comes into play. Queen st itself merits a subway like Bloor, probably more so. We are not providing this with the OL. I am not going to repeat the arguments of old here, but it is hard to deny many stretches of Queen st will be more poorly serviced now than with the RL. This is fine, but it is a core detail of what differentiates the OL from the RL. The western bit of the RL would have taken Queen, and could have easily gone up Dufferin or Roncesvalles as a local service, like much of Line 2. The Ontario Line outright does not intend to service Queen on a local level however, that much is clear. The circuity of its alignment, the transfer points, and the relatively short section on Queen st itself makes it inefficient for local trips. It will probably generate enough ridership through transfers alone, so extending into a high-ridership corridor just doesn't make sense for the Ontario Government. If the TTC spearheaded the OL/RL, this would be a different story as different priorities would come into play.
Anyway, my point is we likely will not see the Ontario Line go up Dufferin. I do not think this project has regional implications, unlike what some posters have said. This is exactly why it is not going to travel up Dufferin; it will not have much relief potential, and will only hinder the intended function of the OL by bringing full trains to Exhibition and creating a circuitous route for Dufferin commuters or Line 2 transfers. This should not be confused with the need for a Dufferin subway; in fact, I would be more than content with allowing the city/TTC to design and build a conventional long and heavy subway on the street. What is likely needed however is a completely different E/W tunnel for such a line. The OL will be at capacity eventually, and feeding a Dufferin branch into it would cause huge issues. I do think the OL has sufficient capacity for its current plans (even the planned extensions), but its capacity will be limited by its tight 90-sec headways in the future, unlike our traditional subways which can continue to be pushed to their limits with better signalling.
With the design logic of the OL in mind and the intended outcomes of its completed 'loop', I think its clear we will not see a Dufferin alignment on the Ontario Line. Rather, we will likely see some pressure from the city and locals for a subway by the end of the decade, when much of our transit expansions will be complete. The OL will not relieve the inner city of capacity issues in the west, and GO may well make it worse with transfers at Dundas West. If I were the TTC, I would be drafting plans for a Dufferin subway right now. Keep it separate from the more regional plans, as that is for the OL. I would prefer to have the Dufferin subway go down Dundas or King, as the streetcars offer a good insight into where our transportation corridors ought to generally go. The King alignment should preferably intersect with the OL at Bathurst, but not through-run with it for any sections. Unlike the RL, I would not be opposed to a shorter Dufferin subway that only goes as far as Line 1 in the east, unless an infill GO station occurs at Cherry st or somewhere in that area. Crossing the Don is unnecessary, and I legitimately think that East Toronto/East York will be ok for transit for the next decade or two. The Dufferin subway should seek to serve Dufferin, and Dufferin only until we need to worry about a NW extension to perhaps Jane or Rexdale. As for the OL, sending it down LSW is the most financially feasible and does offer some good connectivity opportunities, probably on the cheap as well. Plus, lets not forget Doug is an Etobicoke resident. Why would he miss a chance to send another project through it? The whole thing can be at-grade or elevated, while a Dufferin subway is most certainly going to be bored or C&C if we're lucky. The Government probably figures they can push off Dufferin transit by taking the lowest fruit first, sending OL far west and perhaps expanding the King st pilot to more lines to help push a Dufferin subway off for another few terms. Even though I am pessimistic about a Dufferin OL happening, I am still optimistic that Dufferin will see a subway. As we have seen here and worldwide, when transportation pressures become too much to handle, something gives and we build what is necessary, often with less regard for cost once it gets to those crucial levels. With that, we probably won't have to cross our fingers for long.
Below is my interpretation of a subdued subway plan for Downtown Toronto, one that is not overly predictive with far-off extensions for the Dufferin subway but rather one which takes its needs into account alongside the OL. I included a King alignment, Dundas alignment, and a fantasy with both (doing different things, of course). Feedback is appreciated!
1. It will relieve Lines 1, 2 and 5 (transferring to line 1 primarily)
2. It will relieve Union station from some GO riders via Exhibition and East Harbour
3. It will partially relieve the 501 Queen streetcar
4. Relief of Bloor/Yonge and possibly Yonge/Eglinton
But this is it. The OL is more of a relief service than the Relief Line itself, with more connections and stations but less local connectivity and contiguity. That's all well and good, but it gives insight into the design logic of the Ontario Line. Fast forward to the 2051 plan and there is a clear intention to connect at Kipling somehow, then the airport, and circle around a loop and connect the simpler Northeast Don Mills segment. This makes it clear to me that the OL is going to primarily function as a relief line for the entire network, rightly or wrongly, by connecting at Kipling to divert the Mississagan volumes. With that in mind, the Humber bay alignment seems inevitable. It probably won't duplicate all of LSW, but the OL will be very functional and transfer-oriented. This has been made clear by the various design decisions on the line's route.
As mentioned before, the local contiguity of the alignment is inferior to the relief line, because it does not linearly follow Queen street. Well, this is where that functional component comes into play. Queen st itself merits a subway like Bloor, probably more so. We are not providing this with the OL. I am not going to repeat the arguments of old here, but it is hard to deny many stretches of Queen st will be more poorly serviced now than with the RL. This is fine, but it is a core detail of what differentiates the OL from the RL. The western bit of the RL would have taken Queen, and could have easily gone up Dufferin or Roncesvalles as a local service, like much of Line 2. The Ontario Line outright does not intend to service Queen on a local level however, that much is clear. The circuity of its alignment, the transfer points, and the relatively short section on Queen st itself makes it inefficient for local trips. It will probably generate enough ridership through transfers alone, so extending into a high-ridership corridor just doesn't make sense for the Ontario Government. If the TTC spearheaded the OL/RL, this would be a different story as different priorities would come into play.
Anyway, my point is we likely will not see the Ontario Line go up Dufferin. I do not think this project has regional implications, unlike what some posters have said. This is exactly why it is not going to travel up Dufferin; it will not have much relief potential, and will only hinder the intended function of the OL by bringing full trains to Exhibition and creating a circuitous route for Dufferin commuters or Line 2 transfers. This should not be confused with the need for a Dufferin subway; in fact, I would be more than content with allowing the city/TTC to design and build a conventional long and heavy subway on the street. What is likely needed however is a completely different E/W tunnel for such a line. The OL will be at capacity eventually, and feeding a Dufferin branch into it would cause huge issues. I do think the OL has sufficient capacity for its current plans (even the planned extensions), but its capacity will be limited by its tight 90-sec headways in the future, unlike our traditional subways which can continue to be pushed to their limits with better signalling.
With the design logic of the OL in mind and the intended outcomes of its completed 'loop', I think its clear we will not see a Dufferin alignment on the Ontario Line. Rather, we will likely see some pressure from the city and locals for a subway by the end of the decade, when much of our transit expansions will be complete. The OL will not relieve the inner city of capacity issues in the west, and GO may well make it worse with transfers at Dundas West. If I were the TTC, I would be drafting plans for a Dufferin subway right now. Keep it separate from the more regional plans, as that is for the OL. I would prefer to have the Dufferin subway go down Dundas or King, as the streetcars offer a good insight into where our transportation corridors ought to generally go. The King alignment should preferably intersect with the OL at Bathurst, but not through-run with it for any sections. Unlike the RL, I would not be opposed to a shorter Dufferin subway that only goes as far as Line 1 in the east, unless an infill GO station occurs at Cherry st or somewhere in that area. Crossing the Don is unnecessary, and I legitimately think that East Toronto/East York will be ok for transit for the next decade or two. The Dufferin subway should seek to serve Dufferin, and Dufferin only until we need to worry about a NW extension to perhaps Jane or Rexdale. As for the OL, sending it down LSW is the most financially feasible and does offer some good connectivity opportunities, probably on the cheap as well. Plus, lets not forget Doug is an Etobicoke resident. Why would he miss a chance to send another project through it? The whole thing can be at-grade or elevated, while a Dufferin subway is most certainly going to be bored or C&C if we're lucky. The Government probably figures they can push off Dufferin transit by taking the lowest fruit first, sending OL far west and perhaps expanding the King st pilot to more lines to help push a Dufferin subway off for another few terms. Even though I am pessimistic about a Dufferin OL happening, I am still optimistic that Dufferin will see a subway. As we have seen here and worldwide, when transportation pressures become too much to handle, something gives and we build what is necessary, often with less regard for cost once it gets to those crucial levels. With that, we probably won't have to cross our fingers for long.
Below is my interpretation of a subdued subway plan for Downtown Toronto, one that is not overly predictive with far-off extensions for the Dufferin subway but rather one which takes its needs into account alongside the OL. I included a King alignment, Dundas alignment, and a fantasy with both (doing different things, of course). Feedback is appreciated!
asher__jo
Active Member
Yes, with two station entrances at each intersection.
asher__jo
Active Member
Excellent points. This will likely result in another East-West rail line south of Bloor, perhaps along King transitioning to elevated along Lakeshore east of the Don to serve redevelopment of Portlands and other post-industrial lands.
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HillcrestUrbanist
New Member
Just out of curiosity - why do so many fantasy maps have subway lines that parallel the Kitchener GO Corridor north of Bloor? With GO trains running at high frequencies and some sort of fare integration on the table for the near future, the Keele/Weston corridor will be well-served by high-capacity transit.
nfitz
Superstar
There is a thread for fantasy discussions - https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005
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HillcrestUrbanist
New Member
I meant in relation to a proposed western extension of the Ontario Line. My apologies for my wrong choice of words.
afransen
Senior Member
This is why I see merit in OL following Milton as there is no prospects for improving service substantially on that line.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Ontario Line Sept/21 Consultations: Western and Northern Segments
Updated September 22, 2021 at 6:50 am: Minor editorial corrections for typos and references between sections. Updated September 22, 2021 at 12:05 pm: The date of the Downtown segment consultation h…
stevemunro.ca
Q: The Ministry of Transportation has proposed an Ontario Line Loop. It is hard to give feedback on the OL when there is a second phase with no info available. When can we see what it is?
A: The OL has built-in provision for extension north from Science Centre to maybe Sheppard. From the Ex, the line could to go west to Roncesvalles and north to Bloor.
From Steve:
Translude15
Frank the Tank
A 2nd E-W heavy rail line needs to happen within the inner and outer downtown core after the OL is constructed, specifically for the area west of University. If the OL's priority is connectivity and more express-type service between the local and regional (GO) network, then a theoretical rapid transit line would serve as a more localized service alternative. Ultimately, a future rapid transit connection to the Liberty Village Station is also a must. One way to achieve that connection is a King line through downtown and up Dufferin St as others have proposed. A westward OL extension should then move along the railway corridor and hit desperately needed transit nodes in Parkdale and Humber Bay, which allows for connectivity with the proposed Park Lawn GO station.
An easterly extension of the King line would ideally cross the Don River/DVP and traverse Queen, linking with OL at Riverside and moving east towards the Beaches, likely terminating at Woodbine. A branch into the Portland's would be achieved with a proper streetcar connection with Cherry streetcar at Sumach. The key factors favouring a Dufferin St rapid transit line is the massive redevelopment potential along that street but also massive redevelopments either occurring or in development at Dufferin Mall (Bloor), the Galleria (Dupont) as well as E-W development along Dupont, and at St. Clair between Stockyards and Dufferin.
An easterly extension of the King line would ideally cross the Don River/DVP and traverse Queen, linking with OL at Riverside and moving east towards the Beaches, likely terminating at Woodbine. A branch into the Portland's would be achieved with a proper streetcar connection with Cherry streetcar at Sumach. The key factors favouring a Dufferin St rapid transit line is the massive redevelopment potential along that street but also massive redevelopments either occurring or in development at Dufferin Mall (Bloor), the Galleria (Dupont) as well as E-W development along Dupont, and at St. Clair between Stockyards and Dufferin.
nfitz
Superstar
Interesting to see that the official plan has the Ontario Line curving north to Roncesvalle, terminating at Dundas West station. One would assume with stations at Sorauren/Queen and Roncesvalles/Dundas/Howard Park. Had someone mentioned that being in the OP before?
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