[C_Johnson_1995]

I am guessing you will never be served by this service.
I am guessing you have never ridden the buses in winter on this route.

I don't understand why people are so averse to busses. Busses are equally capable of providing a comfortable ride experience to train. I have taken many long distance bus journies before and what ever you get with a train is not worth the massive cost. The north would be better served by a dramatic increase in bus departures. These busses would also make the journey significantly faster and with cheaper fares. If you are interested in mobility and not trains for the sake of trains, this would be abundantly clear. In this regard, I am very much in the camp of UrbanSky.

If Vancouver Island or Saskatoon-Regina do not justify a train, neither does Northeast Ontario. This continual bias in urbanist and advocacy circles against busses needs to end.

"Disaster" might be a bit over-the-top.

What funding for freight do you see as currently lacking? Their motive power seems decent, ROW condition suitable for freight operations, customer base seems reasonably solid.

While they may be in good shape now, funds from freight should never be diverted and that fruitful side of the business should be continuously reinvested in to remain competitive. The problem will come when another drop in business comes. ONR will be much better off without having to support a millstone vanity project around their neck. It's important to remember how close ONTC came to divestiture and closure. This shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't understand why people are so averse to busses. Busses are equally capable of providing a comfortable ride experience to train. I have taken many long distance bus journies before and what ever you get with a train is not worth the massive cost. The north would be better served by a dramatic increase in bus departures. These busses would also make the journey significantly faster and with cheaper fares. If you are interested in mobility and not trains for the sake of trains, this would be abundantly clear. In this regard, I am very much in the camp of UrbanSky.

If Vancouver Island or Saskatoon-Regina do not justify a train, neither does Northeast Ontario. This continual bias in urbanist and advocacy circles against busses needs to end.

OK,let me ask you it this way.
What is the best mode of transportation to run once a day each way to various cities and towns that lack services that the capital of the province has?
What is the best mode of transportation that in the event of adverse weather that is common to the area, will not be slowed down by the weather?
What has amenities on board that can cater to people being comfortable?
What mode is best suited to someone with mobility issues?

This is not a bus vs train argument. This is a best mode for the area.

The difference between Timmins/Cochrane - North Bay - Toronto and Saskatoon and Regina is that those2 cities both have all the services their citizens need. The same cannot be said about Timmins or Cochrane, or Anything north of the GTA along the route. I know how many elderly groups that have been pushing for this as they cannot last in a bus for 4-8 hours. And lets be fair, bringing this back is political. Ford is counting on those ridings voting PC next election.

 

[dowlingm]

I don't understand why people are so averse to busses. Busses are equally capable of providing a comfortable ride experience to train.

in some cases, sure. The longer the route the less likely that is to be true, especially if you need a bathroom break (again this is on average rather than definitive for all operators/equipment). As a taller person I would generally say I have had better seat pitch on an intercity rail journey than any intercity bus I can recall. A crucial point is that buses can bounce around quite a bit on poorly maintained/weather impacted road surfaces - rail can have its moments of hunting or traversing jointed rail but in the main the frequency is less over the course of longer journeys, which most Northlander trips likely would be.

 

[lenaitch]

While they may be in good shape now, funds from freight should never be diverted and that fruitful side of the business should be continuously reinvested in to remain competitive. The problem will come when another drop in business comes. ONR will be much better off without having to support a millstone vanity project around their neck. It's important to remember how close ONTC came to divestiture and closure. This shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

Funding to reinstate and operate the Northlander is/will be new money and it will be subsidized. Argue against the public funds I suppose, but I don't get the sense that freight revenue will be impacted. If the train goes away, so does the added funding.

 

[KevinT]

I believe Metrolinx has some involvement in this, so presumably they'll have the trains, years before the stations and track are ready for service.

Maybe they'll cancel half the order and then order the rest from somebody else at twice the price. You know, just in case...

 

[Allandale25]

New reefers and hoppers for ONTC.

 

[Krypto98]

??

CN is doing the passing tracks on their own segments of track, stations are in procurement (as outlined in this thread). Metrolinx helped plan the service, ONTC is executing the various contracts to get it done. All is on schedule so far.

Are they installing CTC on the Newmarket and doing anything new for the Newmarket or Bala subdivisions?

 

[lenaitch]

Are they installing CTC on the Newmarket and doing anything new for the Newmarket or Bala subdivisions?

The business case speaks of 'minor track upgrades" and a new (or improved?) passing track at Zephyr on the Bala sub. No mention of CTC and I don't think it's ever been raised.

 

[micheal_can]

The business case speaks of 'minor track upgrades" and a new (or improved?) passing track at Zephyr on the Bala sub. No mention of CTC and I don't think it's ever been raised.

With 1 train a day on the Newmarket sub, and the same on the ONR line, would CTC really be needed?

 

[lenaitch]

With 1 train a day on the Newmarket sub, and the same on the ONR line, would CTC really be needed?

Well, there is other traffic on the line, and some may allude to a government document about CTC on all passenger routes (TC rule? TSB recommendation? IDK). I would say not, but I'm not an expert in rail traffic management. There are other passenger services that I suspect are on non-CTC territory.

 

[crs1026]

The bureaucracy wants more track signalling, not less. The remote services lines have been allowed to continue to run without it, certainly railroads have run passenger trains at speed on "dark" trackage for a century or more.

Track signalling is first about confirming the integrity of the track itself, and second about ensuring the separation of movements, and only third about controlling the routing and authority to proceed.

It's hard to reconcile the premise that the Northlander route is being groomed as a sustainable passenger corridor with the belief that the line doesn't need signalling. If this train is to carry full trainloads of people, the risk profile is that much greater than a remote service line. Whether anyone will pay for signalling however remains to be seen.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

The business case speaks of 'minor track upgrades" and a new (or improved?) passing track at Zephyr on the Bala sub. No mention of CTC and I don't think it's ever been raised.

OpenRailwayMap indicates there is a siding at Zephyr at present, so perhaps it is to be lengthened, or the switch type changed to a higher speed geometry.

 

[Allandale25]

The bureaucracy wants more track signalling, not less. The remote services lines have been allowed to continue to run without it, certainly railroads have run passenger trains at speed on "dark" trackage for a century or more.

Track signalling is first about confirming the integrity of the track itself, and second about ensuring the separation of movements, and only third about controlling the routing and authority to proceed.

It's hard to reconcile the premise that the Northlander route is being groomed as a sustainable passenger corridor with the belief that the line doesn't need signalling. If this train is to carry full trainloads of people, the risk profile is that much greater than a remote service line. Whether anyone will pay for signalling however remains to be seen.

- Paul

Is there any sense that CTC could be added? Or, because it wasn't referenced in the Metrolinx business case it won't happen? Seems like a no-brainer and worth the cost to get it right form day one. cc @smallspy

 

[micheal_can]

The bureaucracy wants more track signalling, not less. The remote services lines have been allowed to continue to run without it, certainly railroads have run passenger trains at speed on "dark" trackage for a century or more.

Track signalling is first about confirming the integrity of the track itself, and second about ensuring the separation of movements, and only third about controlling the routing and authority to proceed.

It's hard to reconcile the premise that the Northlander route is being groomed as a sustainable passenger corridor with the belief that the line doesn't need signalling. If this train is to carry full trainloads of people, the risk profile is that much greater than a remote service line. Whether anyone will pay for signalling however remains to be seen.

- Paul

Friend of mine from CN had a story about one of the lines. A MOW supervisor was out on the line at a culvert and he watched before his eyes the culvert and roadbed wash away. CTC was still detecting the track was still good, and it was as it was hanging, but still together. If it wasn't for that supervisor being there, there could have been a wreck due to that.

 

[dowlingm]

Friend of mine from CN had a story about one of the lines. A MOW supervisor was out on the line at a culvert and he watched before his eyes the culvert and roadbed wash away. CTC was still detecting the track was still good, and it was as it was hanging, but still together. If it wasn't for that supervisor being there, there could have been a wreck due to that.

that description reminds me of the Malahide Viaduct collapse in Ireland, where the track was also hanging