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In other words, Buses cannot pass each other without passing lanes. Definitely not an advantage over LRT, as BRT advocates love to claim.

But they can! If a bus is stalled in a BRT lane, what is stopping the bus behind it from crossing over a painted line on the road and going around it? Is there some magical force that keeps the bus in the BRT lane? I don't see a streetcar being able to go around another stalled streetcar on a line. If one streetcar has its power line come off track, the whole line bunches up behind it until the problem is fixed.

Wy do you assume I think BRT is bad? I am pointing out the fact buses cannot just go around blockages as BRT advocates love to preach.

Because you somehow think that buses cannot cross over painted lines on the road. I would say that you aren't thinking outside the box, but come on, that's just common sense...

Much of the new BRT construction is occuring in the suburbs, where LRT is probably not justifed, much of the existing Transitway is slated to be converted to LRT, no? Personally, I think the LRT should extend to Barrhaven from Baseline.

You're right. But does that somehow make BRT less valid? LRT is being implemented where BRT capacity is no longer sufficient. That's not a knock on BRT at all, it's just capacity differences.

And personally, I think extending the LRT to Barrhaven is a dumb idea. The whole reason why in the new plan (even after the first downtown phase) it is not going into the suburbs outside the greenbelt is because the city is using the LRT as an incentive to get these communities to raise their densities to the point where LRT would actually be economical. Basically, until they ditch the new sprawl, no LRT for you. I completely agree with this philosophy.
 
But they can! If a bus is stalled in a BRT lane, what is stopping the bus behind it from crossing over a painted line on the road and going around it? Is there some magical force that keeps the bus in the BRT lane? I don't see a streetcar being able to go around another stalled streetcar on a line. If one streetcar has its power line come off track, the whole line bunches up behind it until the problem is fixed.

Those pictures prove you're wrong. I can post pictures of buses backed up in Brisbane, and Sydney too. One point no one bings up, buses still have to serve the stops, and allow people to board, and disembark. If a bus is stalled on the road between stations, the driver is stil going to have to make sure the way is clear before driving around the obstacle. Considering the number of buses that use the transitway currently, the buses are going to back up real quick. Not to mention slow down buses in the opposite direction. Again, not an advantage.

Because you somehow think that buses cannot cross over painted lines on the road. I would say that you aren't thinking outside the box, but come on, that's just common sense...

Because buses DO NOT simplycross over the painted line on the road, and probably are not allowed without authorization. For the record, I have seen the Transitway blocked at stations with passing lanes because of long dwell times(people trying to cram into a already packed 95/97, instead of waiting for the next bus, and holding up buses behind).

You're right. But does that somehow make BRT less valid? LRT is being implemented where BRT capacity is no longer sufficient. That's not a knock on BRT at all, it's just capacity differences.

And personally, I think extending the LRT to Barrhaven is a dumb idea. The whole reason why in the new plan (even after the first downtown phase) it is not going into the suburbs outside the greenbelt is because the city is using the LRT as an incentive to get these communities to raise their densities to the point where LRT would actually be economical. Basically, until they ditch the new sprawl, no LRT for you. I completely agree with this philosophy.

I never said BRT was less valid. Keithz posted a BRT vs. LRT question, and I responded. I did not turn this into a LRT vs. BRT debate, you guys did. I merely pointed out the the claim that bus can simply pass a blockage is not a advantage of BRT. I have heard this claim many times, and it's really not true.
Yet, the City is planning to convert the O-train to LRT,and run it to Riverside South. Which is outside the Greenbelt last time I checked. Extend the LRT to Barrhaven, along the future southwest Transitway and give Barrhaven a reason to densify.
 
In other words, Buses cannot pass each other without passing lanes. Definitely not an advantage over LRT, as BRT advocates love to claim.

Straw man. Buses can go around obstructions. In this very specific case, they can't go around the "obstruction" because the "obstruction" is the destination itself. Your own two feet can go faster if they start skipping all the places you want to go.

Wy do you assume I think BRT is bad? I am pointing out the fact buses cannot just go around blockages as BRT advocates love to preach.

And doing such a great job using absolute exceptions to the norm. If you've used the Transitway, you know quite well that buses routinely pass each other. To portray the situation as any different is a mistruth and you know it.

Much of the new BRT construction is occuring in the suburbs, where LRT is probably not justifed, much of the existing Transitway is slated to be converted to LRT, no? Personally, I think the LRT should extend to Barrhaven from Baseline.

Right. Just like the old plan (albeit with a slightly different alignmen) which called for spending tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars running track through greenbelt to bring LRT to one of the smallest and least dense communities in Ottawa. It was the Ottawa equivalent of running the SELRT to the zoo. Good thing, they've scrapped that plan and they are now insisting that the LRT not leave the greenbelt unless the suburb they are bound for meets minimum densification targets. And that motion by the way was put forward by a suburban coucnillor from Kanata.

As for "much" of the existing transitway being converted over....count the kms. It's not "much" by any stretch of the imagination. Or least not any time soon. For the forseeable future Ottawa will still have more BRT than LRT...even inside the greenbelt for a decade or two at least, where they will be building new transitways to help them get through construction and add service post-construction.
 
And personally, I think extending the LRT to Barrhaven is a dumb idea. The whole reason why in the new plan (even after the first downtown phase) it is not going into the suburbs outside the greenbelt is because the city is using the LRT as an incentive to get these communities to raise their densities to the point where LRT would actually be economical. Basically, until they ditch the new sprawl, no LRT for you. I completely agree with this philosophy.

I am pretty sure the only reason LRT to Barrhaven was added in the first place was to gain some support for the previous plan. After Riverside the line into Barrhaven was clearly an after thought. There may be other reasons for dropping Barrhaven that are more technical. There has been a lot of talk about using the VIA line and station for commuter rail in the region. There are some scenarios and plans where using the rail line with regular frequency Talents could actually provide really good transit from Barrhaven by connecting with the LRT and BRT lines at various places. Not sure if that is what planners are thinking but if the idea of commuter rail is being taken seriously then that would be a plan that makes sense.

Of all the suburbs I suspect Kanata will be the first to get LRT. It also makes the most sense since it is an important employment centre for the city and they are starting to add more high density development.

Part of the problem with going out the suburbs is that they all have missing links. After Baseline buses run on Woodroffe for a while because there is no right of way they can easily which means tunnelling if they want to keep it grade separated (which it seems they would like to do). Orleans still uses the 174 through the greenbelt. Kanata, will probably be the only suburb that will have a complete transitway by the time the downtown and inner suburb sections open.

On another note, I think that if Toronto were to propose a massive (say $5 billion) investment in the GO network to electrify it, do grade separations, upgrade or add tracks, etc, and build an extensive, frequent service, regional rail network, it would easily get the same kind of support that the Ottawa LRT is getting. Regional rail in Toronto makes complete sense for so many reasons, and the scale of it means it would benefit a lot of the 416 and inner 905 population. Even with a large price tag I bet that if anyone had the guts to propose it and really stand behind it, it would work.
 
Because buses DO NOT simplycross over the painted line on the road, and probably are not allowed without authorization. For the record, I have seen the Transitway blocked at stations with passing lanes because of long dwell times(people trying to cram into a already packed 95/97, instead of waiting for the next bus, and holding up buses behind).

Times like that don't tend to last very long. You may have a small jam at a station but because there is a passing lane it can usually work itself out quick enough. Even downtown buses routinely use the other lanes on Slater and Albert to pass. The reason all those buses were backed up in that picture was a combination of construction on the transitway itself and an accident. If there were no accidents or lane closures, if buses could use the extra lane on Slater and Albert to pass at all times, and there wasn't the bottleneck at Rideau, the system would probably not really see any backups even during rush hour. Of course the only way they can fix it is with a tunnel and at this point in the cities development LRT now makes sense because even a BRT tunnel won't be able to handle the kind of transit growth the city wants.

BRT is failing in Ottawa only because it is so successful. I cannot wait for LRT. This project is very exciting and once construction begins I will probably spend some free days wandering around the city just seeing what sort of development is being made on the project (when work becomes visible). But, Canadian cities have had 50 years of growth that was centred around the car. BRT is one way you can provide fast, reliable transit to less dense areas by making incremental, reasonably priced investments. Canadian cities are growing in a different manner than they used to and maybe in 20 years time more and more suburbs will be designed or developed enough to support LRT. Right now, you have to serve what exists though. Ottawa needed, and still needs BRT, in order to have developed the transit ridership it has, and to create the demand to now justify a high capacity LRT system.

, the City is planning to convert the O-train to LRT,and run it to Riverside South. Which is outside the Greenbelt last time I checked. Extend the LRT to Barrhaven, along the future southwest Transitway and give Barrhaven a reason to densify.

The main reason it is going to Riverside is that it is relatively easy and cheap to do so. If the line is not going to be used for freight or heavy rail, then LRT makes complete sense. I think the total cost to electrify, double track, add a few more stations, and send the existing O-Train line into Riverside and the airport is about $700 million. It also serves a lot of communities, and Carelton. Even in its current incarnation the inner city communities are seeing huge benefits from it. Compare that with an extension from Baseline to Barrhaven. Yes you are connecting Barrhaven to downtown, which is a good thing, but there isn't a lot of high density communities, or schools, or important nodes (like an airport) in between. Not to mention that it would have to create a BRT/LRT right of way with grade separations where it currently uses Woodroffe (because there is no free land to build it easily). For what it would cost (which would likely be just as much as the whole N-S LRT line) and the benefits you get from it, it is just not worth it.

And yes you can extend the N-S line at Riverside but the routing would be rather convoluted and still expensive once you add bridges, grade separations, etc, etc. It also would not provide a route as direct and fast as a Woodroffe LRT would.
 
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Yet, there are some on here (like nfitz for example) who despise him because he cancelled a deeply flawed project.
What an absolutely bizarre post! I've never said anything about O'Brien himself. And I've never said anything that would suggest I despise any municipal politicians in Ottawa.

If you are going to start off your post with such a complete and groundless lie ... I can only assume the entire post is also untrue.

Stop making stuff up.
 
The fact of the matter is there is only 1 subway line being proposed within the 416 under the Metrolinx RTP, and it is under the 25 year tiimeframe.
What? There are 4 subway lines. Yonge extension, Spadina Extension, Downtown Relief line, and Eglinton LRT. The Chair of Metrolinx said the other day that that Eglinton LRT is a subway. Why are you only counting the one that isn't in the 15-year timeframe? I know you have read the plan; why are you trying to deceive us?
 
What? There are 4 subway lines. Yonge extension, Spadina Extension, Downtown Relief line, and Eglinton LRT. The Chair of Metrolinx said the other day that that Eglinton LRT is a subway. Why are you only counting the one that isn't in the 15-year timeframe? I know you have read the plan; why are you trying to deceive us?

Yonge extension barely benefits Toronto. The Spadina extension is already underway, and aside from York University, barely benefits Toronto. Eglinton is NOT a subway. Why are you trying to deceive us by saying it is?

I'm really sick of this "why are you trying do deceive us?" crap. Seriously, I'm not deceiving anybody. Knock it off.
 
Yonge extension barely benefits Toronto. The Spadina extension is already underway, and aside from York University, barely benefits Toronto. Eglinton is NOT a subway. Why are you trying to deceive us by saying it is?

I'm really sick of this "why are you trying do deceive us?" crap. Seriously, I'm not deceiving anybody. Knock it off.

I think all of nfitz's posts have proven that he tries to deceive us by being willfully deceitful himself. Clever strategy. But tiring.

I thought most people on this board supported the DRL. Clearly the LRTistas do not because if they did, they would support SOS and not TC. TC is a roadblock to the DRL, not a step in the right direction. Our priority should be to build out our core subway system (on which there is a quite a lot of agreement as to what that will ultimately look like) rather than pursuing strategies to improve overburdened bus routes.

Once the core subway system is built, then focus on the secondary arterials that would benefit from LRT or roads that are too close to subways to have another subway.
 
Times like that don't tend to last very long. You may have a small jam at a station but because there is a passing lane it can usually work itself out quick enough. Even downtown buses routinely use the other lanes on Slater and Albert to pass. The reason all those buses were backed up in that picture was a combination of construction on the transitway itself and an accident. If there were no accidents or lane closures, if buses could use the extra lane on Slater and Albert to pass at all times, and there wasn't the bottleneck at Rideau, the system would probably not really see any backups even during rush hour.

That's what I would expect, but that's not what I see. I just got back from Ottawa, and the buses were piled up on Slater and Albert every day. There was surprisingly little passing going on. See the pictures I took yesterday on Slater at the Bay stop:

800px-Slater_Looking_East_1.JPG

800px-Slater_Looking_East_2.JPG


Because you somehow think that buses cannot cross over painted lines on the road. I would say that you aren't thinking outside the box, but come on, that's just common sense...

Obviously, OC Transpo drivers don't think outside the box. :D

My guess is that Justin1000 is right. Yes, the buses could go around the lineup, but then they would just create a bottleneck at the next stop, where they would have to merge back in.
 
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That's what I would expect, but that's not what I see. I just got back from Ottawa, and the buses were piled up on Slater and Albert every day. There was surprisingly little passing going on. See the picture I took yesterday on Slater.

That was why I said that it 'could' work well if they wanted to do more in downtown sections. During rush hour, your right, that has become the norm. A lot of it has to do with Rideau. That has become a huge bottleneck in the system. You can actually watch starting from 3:00 and see how the line starts at Rideau and slowly makes it way through downtown. Likewise, in the mornings you can watch the lineup make it ways down into the U of Ottawa campus. The opposite directions during those times are a bit better. But there are just so many buses during rush hour now that there isn't much that can be (cheaply) done.

I thought most people on this board supported the DRL. Clearly the LRTistas do not because if they did, they would support SOS and not TC. TC is a roadblock to the DRL, not a step in the right direction. Our priority should be to build out our core subway system (on which there is a quite a lot of agreement as to what that will ultimately look like) rather than pursuing strategies to improve overburdened bus routes.

Why does one have to support either TC or SOS? I think the DRL is hugely important to Toronto, but I actually don't support either of those two plans. I think both of them are not very good at all. DRL is good. Eglinton LRT looks good (sort of). But beyond that I think there are a lot of other priorities that should come first. Electrifying and modernizing the GO network is one such priority. All the plans Toronto has right now really reminds me of Ottawa five years. Bickering among transit advocates and no overwhelming and clear support for one plan because they are just not all that great or worth the money.
 
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Yonge extension barely benefits Toronto.
Sure it does. It benefits anyone in Toronto travelling from Toronto up to Highway 7. Only 2 stations will be in Toronto, but there's plenty of benefit.

The Spadina extension is already underway, and aside from York University, barely benefits Toronto.
Your kidding right? Have you tried driving around that neighbourhood in rush hour? It's a nightmare. There's lots of benefit. Both the immediate area and anyone who is commuting from the west, will have a much shorter bus ride. Yes, it's being built now. Though they certainly hadn't broken ground back in 2008 when that document came out. Even now, it isn't as far advanced as the Eglinton West subway was when it was cancelled.

Eglinton is NOT a subway. Why are you trying to deceive us by saying it is?
Don't be sillly ... have you read the plans? They are planning on running LRT in a subway tunnel. It has the speed of a subway. It has grade-separated underground stations. It has trains running every 3-minutes (better than every 6-minutes on Sheppard). And it costs as much as a subway (likely because the bigger tunnels for LRT cancel out the savings for the smaller stations). There is no benefit from building a YUS-style service instead ... if anything it would provide worse services with less frequent trains, and forced transfers.

I'm really sick of this "why are you trying do deceive us?" crap. Seriously, I'm not deceiving anybody.
Perhaps it is yourself that your deceiving then.
 
That was why I said that it 'could' work well if they wanted to do more in downtown sections. During rush hour, your right, that has become the norm. A lot of it has to do with Rideau. That has become a huge bottleneck in the system. You can actually watch starting from 3:00 and see how the line starts at Rideau and slowly makes it way through downtown. Likewise, in the mornings you can watch the lineup make it ways down into the U of Ottawa campus. The opposite directions during those times are a bit better. But there are just so many buses during rush hour now that there isn't much that can be (cheaply) done.

Again, I fail to see why this is a knock on BRT as a technology. Bloor-Yonge has the same type of passenger backlog, does that make subway technology inferior? The buses are backed up because there are more passengers than the current system can effectively deal with. LRT is not better or worse than BRT, each of them is right for a given scenario and a given capacity range. Ottawa's downtown portion just happens to have outgrown the capacity range that BRT can effectively deliver. LRT will deliver the necessary capacity.

BRT in Ottawa is not being replaced because it was a failure. BRT in Ottawa is being replaced because it was a success. If a medium-sized city wants to grow its transit ridership, Ottawa is still a great model to look to. BRT worked wonders for Ottawa, and it is still working wonders in nearly every corner of the city. It's only the downtown, where the extra capacity is needed most, where it is having issues.
 
I think all of nfitz's posts have proven that he tries to deceive us by being willfully deceitful himself. Clever strategy. But tiring.
I can't recall writing anything that was wilfully deceitful. I'm sure I've made the odd mistake, or mis-statement. And I've always owned up to such statements.

I thought most people on this board supported the DRL. Clearly the LRTistas do not because if they did, they would support SOS and not TC.
Why paint people black and white. I've vocally supported the DRL, Yonge Extension, Spadina Extension, and even extending Sheppard to Victoria Park. But I've also supported Transit City (and there's no point fighting Sheppard East at this point). It's the SOS scheme that I don't support.

TC is a roadblock to the DRL, not a step in the right direction.
How is it possibly a roadblock? If anything it will increase the loads on Yonge, which will only force the issue.

Our priority should be to build out our core subway system
No ... we need to do both.
 

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