[gweed123]

The EAs for Phase 2 appear to be nearing completion. Detailed design of the Eastern extension is now out. Check out these detailed pdfs:

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/documents/174_17_widening_en.pdf

The part beyond Place D'Orleans station is included in the EA but will not be built for the time being.

Disappointing that there's no station at Jasmine, despite the line being on the north side of the 174. That's a relatively high density and lower income area, so having an RT stop there I would think would be a big benefit to the neighbourhood.

I wouldn't call it "huge" - really it should be expected for any modern system being built in the present day.

Retrofitting the service into an older existing system is a challenge.

Agreed. Good news that it's coming from Day 1, but really it's just the downtown tunnel where it's needed. The rest of the system is open air, so there's "natural" cell service, with the exception of an apparent dead zone between Lincoln Fields and Iris.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What about those newfangled pay phones? Used to take a dime, but likely need to use a toonie these days.

 

[1overcosc]

Disappointing that there's no station at Jasmine, despite the line being on the north side of the 174. That's a relatively high density and lower income area, so having an RT stop there I would think would be a big benefit to the neighbourhood.

A future station at Jasmine is being protected for, according to the current draft EA documents. I'll definitely keeps tabs on this one as it progresses.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Good to see they are knocking off these EAs at a reasonable speed. None of them are particularly surprising as most of the details have been worked out in some form or another over the years. Making it all official does bring a smile though.

At this rate I would guess by this te next year they will start the EA on the current O-Train line and start deciding the future of it. This will be really interesting to watch as how the position it with the rest of the network is key. Will they interline it at Bayview with the rest of the network? Or just terminate it? Or take it across the river? I see a lot of heated debate sparking up over those questions.

Fwiw, I think the Big question mark is how will Bayview play into interprovincial transit. Everyone has always gone with the story that because there is already a rail bridge at that point why not use that as the place to cross the river. And maybe it is the right location (though the idea of using the existing rail bridge is stupid. It's in horrible shape and would cost a fortune to rehabilitate). But maybe there are more beneficial places to cross the river (be it above or over) that would better suit the regions transportation needs.

In any case once you start talking about the Trillium line you have to start addressing interprovincial needs and that opens a flood wave of questions and scenarios about transit in the region as a whole, from BRT to LRT to regional rail. While fascinating from a planning nerd point of view it will be a huge mess in reality for many years.

 

[Markster]

The final design of the Confederation Line Bayview station seems to preclude interlining. Early designs considered it, (see this post) with the combined station just east of the junction, but it was eventually redesigned as a T-interchange. I can't blame them for not prioritizing interlining. If it were, there would then be 4 different branches of the line on the west side of downtown, (Bayshore/Lincoln Fields/Riverside South/Airport) which could be a line-management nightmare.

Some sources say that interlining to downtown is still possible, and I can imagine some additional ramps that would allow it, but I don't know if it's being engineered to make those ramps (and the resulting station design) practical.

 

[CDL.TO]

The final design of the Confederation Line Bayview station seems to preclude interlining. Early designs considered it, (see this post) with the combined station just east of the junction, but it was eventually redesigned as a T-interchange. I can't blame them for not prioritizing interlining. If it were, there would then be 4 different branches of the line on the west side of downtown, (Bayshore/Lincoln Fields/Riverside South/Airport) which could be a line-management nightmare.

Some sources say that interlining to downtown is still possible, and I can imagine some additional ramps that would allow it, but I don't know if it's being engineered to make those ramps (and the resulting station design) practical.

That's unfortunate. I know 4 would be a fair number, but lots of places manage with multiple branches on one line. Since Ottawa has wisely chosen to build their line fully grade separated (really, I can't praise that decision enough), it should be possible to operate things reliably enough to have multiple branches.

A one-seat trip from downtown to the Airport (and Carleton) would be a real boost for the system and for local business.

 

[gweed123]

A future station at Jasmine is being protected for, according to the current draft EA documents. I'll definitely keeps tabs on this one as it progresses.

That's good news, thanks. Hopefully during further consultations that station gets added.

Good to see they are knocking off these EAs at a reasonable speed. None of them are particularly surprising as most of the details have been worked out in some form or another over the years. Making it all official does bring a smile though.

At this rate I would guess by this te next year they will start the EA on the current O-Train line and start deciding the future of it. This will be really interesting to watch as how the position it with the rest of the network is key. Will they interline it at Bayview with the rest of the network? Or just terminate it? Or take it across the river? I see a lot of heated debate sparking up over those questions.

Fwiw, I think the Big question mark is how will Bayview play into interprovincial transit. Everyone has always gone with the story that because there is already a rail bridge at that point why not use that as the place to cross the river. And maybe it is the right location (though the idea of using the existing rail bridge is stupid. It's in horrible shape and would cost a fortune to rehabilitate). But maybe there are more beneficial places to cross the river (be it above or over) that would better suit the regions transportation needs.

In any case once you start talking about the Trillium line you have to start addressing interprovincial needs and that opens a flood wave of questions and scenarios about transit in the region as a whole, from BRT to LRT to regional rail. While fascinating from a planning nerd point of view it will be a huge mess in reality for many years.

My preference in terms of staging is this:

1) Extend the existing diesel Trillium Line to Riverside South.
2) Electrify the line (with electrification infrastructure possibly going in at the same time as the extension).
3) Create a new N-S line from Carleton, along the Canal to Pretoria, then in a tunnel into downtown (cutting diagonally to eventually hit Bank), have a new central interchange station at Parliament Station, then build a new LRT-specific bridge over the Ottawa River to a new Portage Station on the Quebec side. STO can then either choose to extend to a logical terminus point for them, or upgrade the Rapibus corridor to LRT.

Naturally, #3 would happen after the LRT extensions to Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans have happened. Overall, I see dumping N-S passengers off at Bayview as being problematic in the long term, and connecting the Trillium Line to Gatineau would only exacerbate that problem (see: Bloor-Yonge Station). A N-S line that would feed directly into downtown would eventually be needed.

The reason I've chosen that alignment is because running the line along the Canal would reduce the need to tunnel through the Glebe. It would also allow direct service to Lansdowne Park and TD Place. A wye would be put in place just north of Carleton Station, and south of that wye the new downtown-bound line would still use the current Trillium Line alignment. To maintain service on the existing line north of the wye, the Southeast Transitway from Heron to Hurdman could be upgraded to LRT and connected to the line at Confederation, essentially forming a V or a U around downtown.

 

[Markster]

Yeah, I've thought that one day, a Bank St Subway, or something like it, is inevitable. Right now, the downtown transit congestion issue has been dominated by the Transitway, which is being solved with the Tunnel. Of course, the LRT tunnel doesn't solve many intra-downtown transit issues. Once the suburbs' thirst for rapid transit has been sated (LRT reaching Orleans, Kanata, and Barrhaven/Riverside South), a Bank St Subway will be Ottawa's DRL.

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, I've thought that one day, a Bank St Subway, or something like it, is inevitable. Right now, the downtown transit congestion issue has been dominated by the Transitway, which is being solved with the Tunnel. Of course, the LRT tunnel doesn't solve many intra-downtown transit issues. Once the suburbs' thirst for rapid transit has been sated (LRT reaching Orleans, Kanata, and Barrhaven/Riverside South), a Bank St Subway will be Ottawa's DRL.

Agreed. When the LRT extensions beyond the Greenbelt are completed, the south end will be the only part of Ottawa without direct-to-downtown LRT service. However, rather than building a completely new line, the route that I proposed above can be built relatively independently and then connected to the existing Trillium Line at Carleton.

Centretown right now is undergoing a massive transformation, but for such a close area to downtown, the transit service there is pretty poor. Having stations at Bank just north of Somerset and on Gladstone between O'Connor and Metcalfe would be huge for that area.

Given that Orleans will have LRT by 2022, and extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven are likely shortly after that (Bayshore and Baseline by 2022 as well), a N-S central LRT route may not be too far off on the planning horizon, especially if crowding at Bayview becomes an issue. However, if the City doesn't want to bite the bullet on that, they can upgrade the Southeast Transitway from Heron to Hurdman to LRT, and run a split route on that line, with half the trains running to Bayview and the other half to Hurdman. That would at least lessen the load a little bit, although it may only be temporary relief. That section of the Transitway is entirely grade separated, so it wouldn't be a huge undertaking.

 

[gweed123]

Map of the lines that I had described in my previous post. Could have posted it in the Fantasy Thread as well, but I figure it's more relevant here, considering this is the Ottawa LRT thread:

Link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/Ottawa Rapid Transit v4.jpg

The names were chosen because they're either symbolic for Ottawa (Bytown, Rideau, etc), or for Canada in general (Confederation, Dominion, Voyageur, etc). They're also perfectly bilingual, with the exception of maybe Bytown. The difference between the English and French versions of the word are mainly pronunciation.

 

[Markster]

Is the Bytown line using the Alta-Vista corridor? Nice, I like that idea. I think politically, that could actually fly (/roll), unlike the expressway.

I accidentally got into a Facebook debate on the Bell's Corners Rocks group with a friend of my sister's about the LRT. He is of the opinion that downtown didn't need fixing, and that they should have done the West first. And then the East. And then maybe not even downtown still. People could transfer to buses going into the downtown. Because solving all of downtown's bus congestion issues is as easy as asking every single commuter to transfer from a train to a packed bus on the fringe of downtown.

 

[gweed123]

Is the Bytown line using the Alta-Vista corridor? Nice, I like that idea. I think politically, that could actually fly (/roll), unlike the expressway.

Yes it is. I figured that's a natural transit corridor, and it goes right by the hospital complex. South of Heron, it would run in the median of Conroy to a terminus at Hunt Club.

The Voyageur Line is also my idea to make the new bridge at the Aviation Parkway more attractive to the locals around there. The corridor is plenty wide enough to include an LRT in it, and the bridge can be designed with LRT in mind as well. By coupling the bridge and the LRT together, at least the people along the corridor will get some benefit from it, as opposed to the previous plan, which was pretty much all negative for them (increased traffic, increased noise, no increased access).

I accidentally got into a Facebook debate on the Bell's Corners Rocks group with a friend of my sister's about the LRT. He is of the opinion that downtown didn't need fixing, and that they should have done the West first. And then the East. And then maybe not even downtown still. People could transfer to buses going into the downtown. Because solving all of downtown's bus congestion issues is as easy as asking every single commuter to transfer from a train to a packed bus on the fringe of downtown.

Yeah, no... Lol!

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Agreed. When the LRT extensions beyond the Greenbelt are completed, the south end will be the only part of Ottawa without direct-to-downtown LRT service. However, rather than building a completely new line, the route that I proposed above can be built relatively independently and then connected to the existing Trillium Line at Carleton.

Centretown right now is undergoing a massive transformation, but for such a close area to downtown, the transit service there is pretty poor. Having stations at Bank just north of Somerset and on Gladstone between O'Connor and Metcalfe would be huge for that area.

Given that Orleans will have LRT by 2022, and extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven are likely shortly after that (Bayshore and Baseline by 2022 as well), a N-S central LRT route may not be too far off on the planning horizon, especially if crowding at Bayview becomes an issue. However, if the City doesn't want to bite the bullet on that, they can upgrade the Southeast Transitway from Heron to Hurdman to LRT, and run a split route on that line, with half the trains running to Bayview and the other half to Hurdman. That would at least lessen the load a little bit, although it may only be temporary relief. That section of the Transitway is entirely grade separated, so it wouldn't be a huge undertaking.

I think what you will see is an acceleration to build out the first phases of the LRT network as fast as possible (so extending the line to Orleans, Baseline…possibly Fallowfield, Kanata, and then upgrading the Trillium line and likely interlining it into the rest of the network. Outside of the Baseline to Barrhaven and Bayshore to Kanata sections I suspect that by 2023 most of the work will be done or close to be being done with the final phases wrapping up around 2025.

And that will be a pretty amazing network. And something that will really help push urban development in Ottawa in even more positive directions.

But from a Ottawa-specific perspective I don’t see any major undertakings after that for quite some time. A Bank Street subway is certainly a non-starter for several decades and outside of small extensions and spur lines on the existing LRT network there won’t be anything like the period of building we will see continue over the next 10 years.

After this the next big projects will be interprovincial transit and regional rail. Those two projects (which could perhaps become a hybrid project to address both issues at once) are really the last missing piece for the region.

I accidentally got into a Facebook debate on the Bell's Corners Rocks group with a friend of my sister's about the LRT. He is of the opinion that downtown didn't need fixing, and that they should have done the West first. And then the East. And then maybe not even downtown still. People could transfer to buses going into the downtown. Because solving all of downtown's bus congestion issues is as easy as asking every single commuter to transfer from a train to a packed bus on the fringe of downtown.

Lol. Yet this does not surprise me at all. Not only does everyone in Ottawa feel they are qualified to comment on how to build a transit network, but they also have some of the worst ideas ever.

I don’t mean this as a slight against Ottawa because I genuinely love the city, but, one of the strengths of the city, being a National Capital and having a high level of government activity, is also one of its biggest crutches. And I am not even referring to the NCC in this instance. But just the general attitudes and ways of thinking that go along with the government workers and suburbanites in general. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they are anti-urban (and certainly there are ‘some’ urban minded government workers) but they are definitely indifferent when it comes to seeing Ottawa as an urban place.

And yes every city has urban/suburban differences but in Ottawa there is something unique and different about how it plays out. The flip side is that it also hasn’t stopped Ottawa from experiencing an urban renewal renaissance, even if it is taking place in a more understated way then many other Canadian cities.

 

[gweed123]

I think what you will see is an acceleration to build out the first phases of the LRT network as fast as possible (so extending the line to Orleans, Baseline…possibly Fallowfield, Kanata, and then upgrading the Trillium line and likely interlining it into the rest of the network. Outside of the Baseline to Barrhaven and Bayshore to Kanata sections I suspect that by 2023 most of the work will be done or close to be being done with the final phases wrapping up around 2025.

And that will be a pretty amazing network. And something that will really help push urban development in Ottawa in even more positive directions.

Yes, I definitely think that after Phase 1 opens we'll see a big push to "complete the network". By the time Phase 1 opens Phase 2 will either be very close to or already in construction. Hopefully some politician is brave enough to propose additional measures in order to complete the network to Barrhaven and Kanata.

But from a Ottawa-specific perspective I don’t see any major undertakings after that for quite some time. A Bank Street subway is certainly a non-starter for several decades and outside of small extensions and spur lines on the existing LRT network there won’t be anything like the period of building we will see continue over the next 10 years.

I think it'll all come down to how much of a pain Bayview becomes. If it can handle the passenger transfer volume, then I think everything will be fine. But if there comes a point where the transfer volume becomes too much, there will be calls to re-route the N-S line directly into downtown. I also think Gatineau getting LRT will also influence that, and dumping those passengers off at Bayview isn't much of a solution.

The solution that I propose addresses both of those. It's not just a Bank St Subway, but a connection to Gatineau via Downtown Ottawa and Portage (a huge trip generator from both sides of the river). I realize that it's a big project, but I think a lot of factors can change in 10 years to make this project needed.

After this the next big projects will be interprovincial transit and regional rail. Those two projects (which could perhaps become a hybrid project to address both issues at once) are really the last missing piece for the region.

Agreed completely. By placing LRT in the Aviation Parkway corridor, connecting to the new bridge, it would provide increased rail and road connectivity across the river. The LRT being along that corridor would hopefully lower the objections of nearby residents to the bridge being built.

Regional rail in Ottawa will be tough, since the train station isn't downtown. Any regional rail trips would still require an LRT trip for most people.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Yes, I definitely think that after Phase 1 opens we'll see a big push to "complete the network". By the time Phase 1 opens Phase 2 will either be very close to or already in construction. Hopefully some politician is brave enough to propose additional measures in order to complete the network to Barrhaven and Kanata.

At this point I don't think such a proposal would be that bold. Barrhaven might be marginally tougher sell because of the section between Baseline station and Hunt Club. Even then I am sure most people would be in agreement that getting those sections done would make a lot of sense.

Regional rail in Ottawa will be tough, since the train station isn't downtown. Any regional rail trips would still require an LRT trip for most people.

Your right. The current location of the train station is an issue. But it will also have to be corrected at some point. My own guess (based on nothing substantial I will admit) is that this will be solved with a mega-project that combines a new interprovincial tunnel connection under King Edward (the so-called truck tunnel), with a new transit tunnel that would provide interprovincial regional rail/local rail. Somewhere around the Rideau/Cumberland area (close to the Rideau LRT station) you would have a new, underground, commuter rail station.

Right now that may seem like a totally way out there idea. But, given the future transit needs of Gatineau, the need for a more efficient inter-provincial transit connection, the truck tunnel (which is likely the only interprovincial vehicle crossing that would not have local opposition trying to crush it at every move), and regional rail on the Ottawa side, this will make a lot of sense in 10 years time. Will it be cheap? God no. And the only way it works is if the Feds take a key, if not leading, role in it all. The region as a whole though is growing and changing in a way that everyday it makes just a bit more sense until one day it becomes clear that this is just what they need to do (much in the same way that one day the lightbulb went off for the majority of people in the GTA and suddenly RER'ing and electrification of the GO network just suddenly made sense).