MarkBrooks
Active Member
Thank you, will investigate!
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- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
Thank you, will investigate!
MarkBrooks
Active Member
It would require the political will to expropriate the right of ways. Just the pipeline effort from the westover terminal, the expense, and land used, combined with rebuilding Hamilton airport for its new role, could equal that of building the first stage of Pickering airport. And Hamilton is still penalized by its location.
It seems that the original team that selected the Pickering land to future proof Toronto’s aviation infrastructure knew what they where doing. Hamilton will always have a role to play in a pinch, but Pickering is the prime location available to solve Toronto’s passenger Jet airport capacity squeeze.
JasonParis
Moderator
Off topic, but I've pondered that the 410 may also get an "official name" upon Davis' death. Perhaps the "Bill Davis Expressway." And like our other 400-series expressways with proper names, people will continue to just say "the 410."
DonValleyRainbow
Senior Member
As an international airport, should it not bear the name of a national figure like a former PM (Toronto Pearson, Montréal–Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Saskatoon Diefenbaker, Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier)? I think Lyon Mackenzie King would be a good candidate, especially given that his government created Trans-Canada Airlines (which then became Air Canada).
The escarpment.
An HFR/HSR stop at the airport is a good call, IMO. It would just be an important stop, not meant to be an eastern GTA catchment, such a stop should be further east. It would not be unlike the HSR proposal or regular VIA service to KW, where there's a stop at Malton.
The closest active rail line is the CN line that runs through Copetown (northwest of Ancaster). Connecting to Hamilton Munro would likely mean cutting through the Dundas Valley, which is pretty close to a non-starter.
There are only two semi-viable options for rail to Hamilton Munro:
1) Reactivate the old line that used to run up the escarpment (and is now a rail trail) from the CP line through downtown. If you look at an aerial, the ROW crosses Airport Rd about 3km east of Upper James, so it would require a new ROW to get to the airport. It would also require removing the rail trail, a new over/underpass of the Linc, and a bunch of either grade separations or at-grade crossings.
2) Run a line up from the existing rail corridor through Caledonia, possibly paralleling the land reserved for the Highway 6 bypass.
Personally, I think #2 is far more viable if all you're looking for is freight. But if you're looking for any kind of passenger connection, it has to be #1.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
It is possible. There is an old railway RoW that could connect Hamilton GO Centre to close to the airport, up the escarpment. A new spur over farmland could be built to connect directly to the airport. Realistically, John C. Munro Airport doesn't have enough traffic to warrant this yet however.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Possibly a naive question, but how do/would they deal with connecting flights with two major airports (assuming for argument's sake that Pickering becomes other than a GA field)? You fly in from Sault Ste. Marie wanting to go to London England - short of duplication of carriers and flights, how does this get managed? Wasn't that a problem when Westjet was originally exclusively out of Hamilton?
rbt
Senior Member
Generally ticket purchasers avoid such transfers. For the few that don't, there are typically inter-airport bus shuttle services (midway/o'hare for example). Pickering is on a railway line so a transfer via PUPX (Pearson Union Pickering eXpress) might be done.
In short, it would be much the same as transferring today from a Porter flight to an international flight out of Pearson; a bit of a hassle. Typically the discount airlines would locate themselves at the discount (poorly connected) airport to keep ticket prices down. Most passengers would be flying into/out of Toronto itself rather than transferring.
micheal_can
Senior Member
West Jet is what made Hamilton a busy airport. We need a new low cost carrier to make Pickering even worth the hassle.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Using the Stouffville Line to get to the Midtown corridor? With the SRT being decommissioned (eventually) for the subway, I suppose there is room for that, right?
Scarborough Town Centre not being a stop is an obvious misfortune. That town centre is just so poorly located within Scarborough... At least they will have a one-stop subway allowing them to transfer at Kennedy? (heh, could have been a quick 1.6km one-stop LRT transfer under a different timeline)
PS. I am totally sold on the PUPX acronym.
MarkBrooks
Active Member
In Toronto and around the world there are two clear visions of how passengers should be moved by aircraft. The first is the Mega hub, an upsized version of the existing hub and spoke system in use at large airports since the 1970s. Pearson wants to become a mega hub. The second approach is called point to point , where passengers take a flight directly from an airport closer to their home, direct to a final destination.
Not to belabor the obvious, but passengers want point to point. No one wants to run around a mega hub ( looking like an expensive mega mall ) trying to find a connecting flight. It goes without saying that Smaller communities need to connect to larger airport for some flights, but new tech midsized airliners now have the flexibility, range and efficiency to make the majority of domestic and overseas destinations in one hop.
Discount Airlines are doing thier best to avoid mega hub airports by using more efficient smaller reliever airports for point to point runs. The reason is simple, operating costs. As congestion increases at the Hub airport, operating cost can increase dramatically with flight delays, long taxi lineup for take off and after landing for a gate.
A good example of a hub reliever pair is Heathrow and Standstead, or even Gatwick.
But the reliever airport must be close to or inside the hub passenger catchment area to work. This is why Pickering works for Toronto but Hamilton is challenged. But without a reliever airport, When the Hub airport is overloaded and runs out of slots it will upsize aircraft, cutting off service to smaller communities that are not economic for point to point and that the hub is actually best at serving. That is why allowing the Pearson monopoly to pursue its mega hub plan without an accessible reliever airport in Pickering is such a horrible idea.
See:
https://pickeringairport.org/how-pi...-a-winning-destination-for-low-cost-carriers/
Because of these factors the
dowlingm
Senior Member
One thing that could be done to improve Hamilton’s position would be to operate frequent direct bus service between the airport and Aldershot GO.
One thing I struggle with is what exactly the GA “market” consists of, and what its prospects are if carbon pricing becomes a significant impact on aviation fuel cost. Are we building an airport for a “market” about to shrink?
One thing I struggle with is what exactly the GA “market” consists of, and what its prospects are if carbon pricing becomes a significant impact on aviation fuel cost. Are we building an airport for a “market” about to shrink?
MarkBrooks
Active Member
Pickering airport is NOT being built for the GA market, although this market is growing due to new technology. But due to the smaller size of GA aircraft and slot scarcity at Pearson , they will certainly be heavy users of Pickering given the scarce number of modern runways in Toronto.. GA consists of everything from a small 4 seat Cessna to the 10 seat corporate Kodiak “tonka truck” that is one of my current gigs to executive jets from 6-20 seaters. Even a private corporate 40 seat Q400 is considered GA. Perhaps the most famous GA plane is the global express ($60 million, flights to anywhere in the world) build by bombardier in Downsview.
But My favorite GA Jet is the cirrus Jet, love that little guy. Got to fly number 9 off the assembly line a number of times and it is an example of what is coming. Fuel efficient, but without reverse thrust it is built for and expects a modern runway..
Carbon pricing is important, and saving 20 minutes of taxing around Pearson ( assuming u can even get in, which is less and less likely) is a big deal as jets typically burn half the fuel in idle as they do in cruise. Being ready for aviations green revolution is Another reason why Pickering is so important:
https://pickeringairport.org/will-toronto-miss-out-on-aviations-green-revolution/
lenaitch
Senior Member
Thanks for that. I'm not convinced all the high-techy midsized aircraft in the world will make point-to-point flights from places like Timmins, Windsor or Thunder Bay viable; not from aircraft viability but simply from passenger volumes.
I've not tested it but I would think it is currently easier to get from Pearson to to Hamilton than it is to Pickering, certainly during rush hour, so no multi-hub/hub reliever works without transit, and transit that virtually direct and is suitable for schlepping luggage. Do passengers move between Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansteadin any kind of numbers? They also have London City Centre which I get the sense is closer to The Island.
MarkBrooks
Active Member
Humm, guess I could have been clearer. The idea behind a hub airport being paired with a reliever airport is to allow point to point service without being forced to go through a congested hub. In theory there doesn’t need to be passenger transfers between the airports. That’s not the relationship. It’s all about reduced congestion’s, wait times, road traffic and operational costs. That said thrifty consumers who have no choice but to arrive at a Hub, do take public transit or a taxi to the other airports for the inherently cheaper fares.
Today there is very little pax traffic between Pearson and Hamilton by design. With no traffic, it’s a 48 minute drive in a taxi to cover the 79 km road trip between the two airports, this is a deterrent. Pickering will be closer, 56 km , but more important the traffic is easier, only 32 minutes away thanks to the 407. In daytime peak traffic congestion Pickerings advantage becomes even more pronounced. But the real issue is accessible aviation for the residents of Toronto looking to start or end a journey in Toronto . Travel times to Pickering from the eastern GTA are 1/4 to 1/2 the time To Hamilton.
Use google maps and see for yourself.
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