salsa
Senior Member
Probably for the better.
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- Thread starter Scrub
- Start date
Probably for the better.
P23
Active Member
Actually it sounds exactly like the type of thing that would happen in Toronto.
Euphoria
Active Member
Does anyone here hold down a job? Toronto's congestion is out of control and impacts our quality of life and business attractiveness. The 401 has the busiest stretch of highway in North America. Michael Moore said during TIFF, "Fix your traffic problem, Toronto." We need to move people, and not just on transit.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
So the solution is to destroy the other aspects that grant us our high quality of life and business attractiveness by building expressways through our neighbourhoods? Despite empirical evidence stating that expressways create more congestion?
Why do I feel like I am repeating myself from here and the Gardiner thread?
LNahid2000
Senior Member
I'm not sure what holding down a job has to do with building underground expressways in Toronto, however, most desirable cities in the world are congested because they're desirable. If you don't want congestion, go live in Buffalo or something.
Skeezix
Senior Member
"Does anyone here hold down a job?" - what an obnoxious thing to say. And then to follow that by stating the obvious, as if it somehow buttresses your ideas.
sixrings
Senior Member
Euphoria your job pays you enough to park downtown and pay $60 in tolls a day. Nice.. But if that is so why not just move downtown. Im sure $100 a day would go a long way to getting you a nice place downtown.
Euphoria
Active Member
Are you a communist? -- okay, at this point I'm being facetious. My point is, do it right: Bury the Gardiner and finish the Allen underground. Add subways in the dig, paid for at least in part by tolls. The other options are rink a dink compared to what's been done in Boston and Montreal. The commute in and around TO, by car or transit, is a joke. Don't think for a second that living with the current congestion and elevated expressway running through the core is acceptable. What would it hurt to try this with the Allen between Eglinton and the Gardiner? If you're worried about interchanges, let's at least look at what's possible. Stop shooting for second rate. It loses on all levels, aesthetically, environmentally, economically.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
If anything were to be tunneled , is it the Allen or the 400?
dunkalunk
Senior Member
Black Creek Drive, though not sure how, where or with what money. Highway 400 becomes a municipal road after it crosses Jane, so guess who would foot the bill...
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Euphoria
Active Member
There may be a case to be made for Black Creek Drive if tunneling incorporated subway, as it would better align with the planned route for the DRL through Dundas West station, if the tunnel veered under Weston Rd. then under Dundas St. Tunneling is surely easiest along parks/river valleys, since they're in a sense already below grade. In some cases tunnels are built into the sides of the valley rather than the base of the valley. That's why I like the Allen, because there are a number of parks that form a rough north-south axis along the now extinct Garrison Creek (Cedervale, Wychwood, Christie Pits, Bickford Park, Trinity Bellwoods, Stanley Park, Garrison Common).
dunkalunk
Senior Member
As a what-if, I tried to envision what Allen Rd interchange would look like if it were converted to an at-grade arterial road. I did my best to use existing grade separations where road geometry wouldn't make them unreasonable. Notably, Allen Rd has been realigned to run entirely west of the Spadina Subway using the Transit Rd underpass to cross the subway north of Wilson Station. Also, given there is more than ample space for it, I added a basketweave at this location to allow the MTO to phase out the substandard one between Jane and Keele.
Yorkdale Mall would need to sell some parking lot in order to make room for proper ramps at Bathurst, and access roads but overall, there would be a lot of land freed up for other uses.
Yorkdale Mall would need to sell some parking lot in order to make room for proper ramps at Bathurst, and access roads but overall, there would be a lot of land freed up for other uses.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
The connection to the 401 via the Allen Rd realignment would still be there. Ultimately, it would be up to the owners of Yorkdale. Yorkdale Rd is still internal to their property, so they are not obliged to allow any other users, they may even be resistant to giving up their access road on the east due to the added traffic caused by the new arterial road.
Euphoria
Active Member
Below shows what an underground toll Allen Expressway extension to the Gardiner might look like. The western leg of the DRL is incorporated within it. South of Eglinton there are only on and off highway ramps at Dupont and Ossington, at Ossington north of Harrison (between Dundas and College), just east of Bathurst on Adelaide (eastbound) and Richmond (westbound), and on Front St. just west of Bathurst. All subway stations along the underground toll route would be constructed at the same time as the toll route and paid for by the road tolls, including some of the intermodal station at Bathurst and Front. Note that this infrastructure provides an exit from the western Gardiner to the city road grid, allowing for eventual removal of the elevated Gardiner east of Strachan if this is deemed viable (I hope this happens at least east of Jarvis). Also note that this infrastructure still allows for extension of the rail deck park west of Bathurst and for the Fort York pedestrian bridge to the Garrison Triangle park and condo developments. Tunneling along the entire route occurs either underneath roads, parks, or 2-3 storey structures with shallow foundations.
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