[TheTigerMaster]

So did this thread just become the which should be built first thread, and the original thread will be the news and interesting details thread?

Not a bad coincidence of events.

As the OP. I can rename it. Should it be renamed, again? To What?

The two threads should be merged together, imo. People are going to end up discussing the same things.

I wish UT had a way to add a poll to existing threads.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Detailed planning work for North should be beginning this year, roughly after the completion of the TPAP for South, but I have no idea how delayed (if at all) that plan was

They already completed the planning in 2015, and moved int the 15% design in 2016. It's much further advanced than the Relief line. See the project website. http://www.vivanext.com/project_YongeSubway

Sorry, when I said "North", I meant Relief Line North, and not Yonge North Subway Extension. My wording didn't make it very clear.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And some think they may have underestimated the latent demand on Yonge.

I think reality is, that by that point, we are going to need a second Yonge Line. Though we've talked about this before. Presumably some kind of express. I'd suggest down Bay, with stops at Queens Quay (which solves Union-Queens Quay link issue - but make it deep enough to go under the Lake, to either the Islands or the Portlands), Union, Queen, Bloor, then St. Clair (sliding over from Bloor to Yonge Street) not sure how far you take it; you could enter Davisville and have a combined station for easy transfer, and then take off up Duplex for a final station at Eglinton - for now. (you could even swap, and take this new Express Bay subway up the existing Yonge alignment, and terminate the original Yonge subway at Eglinton.

I'd rather spread out the rapid transit coverage, than build a second subway line proximate to the Yonge Line. Maybe a central RER tunnel on King Street, servicing some combination of Lakeshore East, Stouffville, Richmond Hill and Lakeshore West might provide significant Yonge Line relief? The central tunnel would put people a lot closer to their destinations than Union Station presently does, so I'd expect that it would generator quite a bit of new ridership.

Admittedly, this would appear to capture downtown-bound transit ridership east of the Relief Line North, and west of the Spadina Line. So this likely wouldn't prevent a lot of riders from transferring to the Yonge Line from surface routes. But what it would do is divert downtown-bound passengers off of Line 2 (at Kennedy, Main Street and Dundas West), which will have the knock-on effect of reducing the number of transfers between Line 2 and Line 1, reducing Yonge Line ridership.

(Don't read too much into specific alignments on the map; it was haphazardly drawn)

 

[micheal_can]

And some think they may have underestimated the latent demand on Yonge.

I think reality is, that by that point, we are going to need a second Yonge Line. Though we've talked about this before. Presumably some kind of express. I'd suggest down Bay, with stops at Queens Quay (which solves Union-Queens Quay link issue - but make it deep enough to go under the Lake, to either the Islands or the Portlands), Union, Queen, Bloor, then St. Clair (sliding over from Bloor to Yonge Street) not sure how far you take it; you could enter Davisville and have a combined station for easy transfer, and then take off up Duplex for a final station at Eglinton - for now. (you could even swap, and take this new Express Bay subway up the existing Yonge alignment, and terminate the original Yonge subway at Eglinton.

.

I have thought the same thing. Something running up Bay/Avenue Rd/Bathurst right up to Richmond Hill Centre.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In regards to capacity, part of the issue is that the EA and Metrolinx report are getting further and further in the rearview mirror. Had the darned thing gotten approved/funded in 2009-10, we'd be in the final years of construction and the opening-day capacity constraints for 2020 disappear in the face of a 2030 opening day. In the meantime, the situation has worsened both on Yonge North and at Yonge-Bloor; no substantial progress on either.

So, I acknowledge that the longer we wait, the more my "shouldn't be a problem to build Yonge first," argument gets undermined. A paradox.

In theory, these ideas are fine (and in a perfect world, there would be a way to double-track Yonge and have a parallel express line) but I can't imagine any of these going through. Avenue Road and Bayview, in particular, are lined with fancy shmancy homes and it's hard to imagine the local pols ever OKing subways that would necessitate intensification. Try to imagine a Leaside Subway, even if it otherwise makes sense to have a train running under Bayview, interfacing with the Crosstown and Sheppard subway. (Bayview also has no development possible near Bloor, Lawrence and Steeles, for starters.)

Avenue, of course, ends at 401 so you'd have to cross the valley and join Yonge at Sheppard or (on my personal fantasy map) extend the Sheppard line over to the Spadina line and have the Avenue line end at Bat/Sheppard.

Bathurst might be relatively easy, in that context - already lots of apartments etc. - but you're still talking 3 or 4 decades away for any of these plans.

It's depressing enough that in the short term we have a subway extension with a complete EA that's already almost 10 years old, where almost nothing is happening/can happen and that it's contingent on another line that's 10 years away. What mess of a situation we've put ourselves in.

 

[Leo_Chan]

In regards to capacity, part of the issue is that the EA and Metrolinx report are getting further and further in the rearview mirror. Had the darned thing gotten approved/funded in 2009-10, we'd be in the final years of construction and the opening-day capacity constraints for 2020 disappear in the face of a 2030 opening day. In the meantime, the situation has worsened both on Yonge North and at Yonge-Bloor; no substantial progress on either.

So, I acknowledge that the longer we wait, the more my "shouldn't be a problem to build Yonge first," argument gets undermined. A paradox.

In theory, these ideas are fine (and in a perfect world, there would be a way to double-track Yonge and have a parallel express line) but I can't imagine any of these going through. Avenue Road and Bayview, in particular, are lined with fancy shmancy homes and it's hard to imagine the local pols ever OKing subways that would necessitate intensification. Try to imagine a Leaside Subway, even if it otherwise makes sense to have a train running under Bayview, interfacing with the Crosstown and Sheppard subway. (Bayview also has no development possible near Bloor, Lawrence and Steeles, for starters.)

Avenue, of course, ends at 401 so you'd have to cross the valley and join Yonge at Sheppard or (on my personal fantasy map) extend the Sheppard line over to the Spadina line and have the Avenue line end at Bat/Sheppard.

Bathurst might be relatively easy, in that context - already lots of apartments etc. - but you're still talking 3 or 4 decades away for any of these plans.

It's depressing enough that in the short term we have a subway extension with a complete EA that's already almost 10 years old, where almost nothing is happening/can happen and that it's contingent on another line that's 10 years away. What clustercuss of a situation we've put ourselves in.

So if the subway was funded when theEA was completed in 2009, it would have been (mostly) acceptable. However, it wasn’t and now that Yonge is already over capacity, even if it was at 100% design, it would still have to wait for the Relief Line North.

Capacity issues we would have been experiencing now will require the Relief Line, but what we have now is already high. So time actually made the project less attractive.

 

[dowlingm]

It would be sheer madness to go into a YNSL commitment before the effects of Crosstown and ATO are known. However many people the Spadina extension has taken off the top end of the Yonge line, it doesn't feel like much when standing on the Yonge-Bloor platforms and watching trains which seem just as full as before close their doors in your face.

 

[Disparishun]

Aren't there here-and-now measures that can be taken to start to shift traffic off the Yonge line in the meantime? For instance:

- Lower GO fares to subway fares -- including free transfers -- within the 416.

- Lower the Presto rush hour fares for north-south routes that aren't the Yonge line.

 

[micheal_can]

Aren't there here-and-now measures that can be taken to start to shift traffic off the Yonge line in the meantime? For instance:

- Lower GO fares to subway fares -- including free transfers -- within the 416.

- Lower the Presto rush hour fares for north-south routes that aren't the Yonge line.

Or, they could even add an additional fare to the subways.

There are many options, but none are that palatable.

 

[Streety McCarface]

First?!

I would actually give up and probably finally take advantage of the EU citizenship I'm eligible for and gtfo of here if that were to happen.

Or you could just adjust your commute to use the University-Spadina line or move to the west side of Toronto in the meantime...

 

[Leo_Chan]

Or you could just adjust your commute to use the University-Spadina line or move to the west side of Toronto in the meantime...

Or just use the Relief Line. Oh wait...

 

[SunriseChampion]

Or you could just adjust your commute to use the University-Spadina line or move to the west side of Toronto in the meantime...

I don't even use the subway. I would take advantage of my eligibility for EU citizenship because it would be clear that the priorities here are backwards.