[SunriseChampion]

This election will not be based on facts but on narratives and the sense is the liberals have taken a lot of debt and have increased taxes and there is not that much to show for it.

My taxes have actually gone down, though that was the doing of the federal government (~60k p.a.)
Whose taxes have gone up?
Sales tax hasn't changed.
My smokes cost more, I guess.
Liquour?
Petrol?

So, a bunch of shitty things cost more while my income costs less. Where have taxes gone up?

The only time I remember my income taxes going up was when I was in the lowest tax bracket and Jim Flaherty raised my taxes by 0.5%. That was in 2006.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Well, Alberta wanted to be Norway, except it spent all the oil money keeping the population from taxation instead of setting up a sovereign wealth fund with something to show for it.

AoD

haaaaaa.....man, when I first heard of the difference between what each of those two jurisdictions had stashed away, I couldn't believe how foolish Albertans have been.

 

[kEiThZ]

And Ontario is one of the largest sub-sovereign economies on earth.

This line is about as stupid as the federal Liberals saying that debt/gdp is around ~30%.

It's a cherry-picking stat that no economist uses. Economist use total public sector/gdp when comparing countries, because that's the only way to account for the differences in how sub-national governments are setup.

Similarly, saying Ontario is the most indebted subnational entity really ignores several issues like the level of responsibility Canadian provinces and their revenue raising abilities (something a lot of other subnational entities don't come close to).

All that said, Ontario does have to get its fiscal house in order. And I think it's fair to ask what the Liberals have achieved for the incredible amount of debt taken on.

 

[kEiThZ]

and even more to that point: Alberta wants to be like Sweden, without a Swedish level of taxation. Alberta is the king solo of this particular mathematical voodoo.

Alberta wishes they were Norway. Not Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

The Government Pension Fund Global, also known as the Oil Fund, was established in 1990 to invest the surplus revenues of the Norwegian petroleum sector. It has over US$1 trillion in assets, including 1.3% of global stocks and shares, making it the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund. In September 2017 it was worth $192,307 per Norwegian citizen.

 

[Jasmine18]

My taxes have actually gone down, though that was the doing of the federal government (~60k p.a.)
Whose taxes have gone up?
Sales tax hasn't changed.
My smokes cost more, I guess.
Liquour?
Petrol?

So, a bunch of shitty things cost more while my income costs less. Where have taxes gone up?

The only time I remember my income taxes going up was when I was in the lowest tax bracket and Jim Flaherty raised my taxes by 0.5%. That was in 2006.

Ontario Health Premium
Cap and Trade
Eco Fees
Car License fees have gone up a lot

It is not a traditional income tax hike but a lot of people believe in this narrative that liberals have greatly increased taxes true or not.

As I said this is an election of two ontario's...One says all is well and the other says things are going to shit.

 

[kEiThZ]

This election will not be based on facts but on narratives

I agree with this. And I think a lot of partisans often miss the forest for the trees because they think rhyming off facts is an effective sales pitch, rather than just an annoyance to a voter who is angry and emotional.

and the sense is the liberals have taken a lot of debt and have increased taxes and there is not that much to show for it.

I've always said the Liberals should have prioritized infrastructure over social programs. Infrastructure gives you something tangible to point to. "We built that for you." Social programs are things people forget about unless they use them on a regular basis. And I think this choice is going to help drive the narrative you've pointed out.

The federal Liberals are also making the same mistake. And it's going to come back to bite them in the six in one or two electoral cycles too.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

haaaaaa.....man, when I first heard of the difference between what each of those two jurisdictions had stashed away, I couldn't believe how foolish Albertans have been.

That is the difference between good and bad governance, that's all.

AoD

 

[SunriseChampion]

Ontario Health Premium
Cap and Trade
Eco Fees
Car License fees have gone up a lot

It is not a traditional income tax hike but a lot of people believe in this narrative that liberals have greatly increased taxes true or not.

As I said this is an election of two ontario's...One says all is well and the other says things are going to shit.

Cap and trade isn't a tax, by any stretch of any explanatory word-magic.

I completely forgot about the health premium! Cheers for reminding me....I guess.

What are these eco fees you speak of?

Car licensing fees are used to upkeep and regulate roadways, no? Are they a tax or a user fee? The two aren't the same thing unless we start considering our phone and internet bills to be a tax.

 

[Jasmine18]

Cap and trade isn't a tax, by any stretch of any explanatory word-magic.

I completely forgot about the health premium! Cheers for reminding me....I guess.

What are these eco fees you speak of?

Car licensing fees are used to upkeep and regulate roadways, no? Are they a tax or a user fee? The two aren't the same thing unless we start considering our phone and internet bills to be a tax.

Carbon tax is not popular out here at all and I am like its not a carbon tax.

We dont live in facts anymore

 

[SunriseChampion]

That is the difference between good and bad governance, that's all.

AoD

Well, the Albertans used the money to keep taxes low which kept the people happy because the people weren't smart enough to realise that their futures were being sold out for more cars, TVs, phones, ATVs, etc now.
I'm not sure Albertans in general realised that their taxes were being kept low only because of the oil money. I imagine they all sort of thought that what they were getting for their taxes was a damn good deal.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree with this. And I think a lot of partisans often miss the forest for the trees because they think rhyming off facts is an effective sales pitch, rather than just an annoyance to a voter who is angry and emotional

I am all for going the opposite tack - fight irrational rage with the same. If people want a show, give them one. If you b*tch about health premium, don't come yelling about the doctors when they are asking for more money and why your hospital ER is still packed after 2 expansions in a decade; if you b*tch about gas tax, don't come yelling about the umpteen highway extensions, widenings, resurfacings. Don't come yelling about the government debt when you are the one carrying a mortgage that will roast you in hell if the interest rate rises by a few basis points.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Well, Alberta wanted to be Norway, except it spent all the oil money keeping the population from taxation instead of setting up a sovereign wealth fund with something to show for it. I mean, Norway also has Statoil (literally State Oil); Alberta has...?

AoD

Bingo!

And further to that, check Norway's ratings on
List of countries by external debt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Right off the bat, I fully admit that to compare Canada to Norway is different than Ontario to Norway. However, until I hunt down Ontario's actual stats to compare directly *on a level playing field*, Canada is an acceptable stand-in to make this point:

Norway, per capita, *with their own money*, is probably the richest nation on earth. And yet look at how that stat completely misses it.

Billionaires still take out mortgages when they buy homes in many cases. What really matters is how much of the value is 'on the books as an asset' and how much is unsecured debt.

Alberta epitomizes economic mismanagement. Jason Kenney and his well-holes....mind you, Notley is not that much better. You can only do so much for a society that lacks the basics in empathy, let alone general awareness.

They lost it when Peter Lougheed moved on. Now there was a man who 'got it' at a time when Albertans did too.

Edit to Add: By stating "with their own money"...I mean not like Lichenstein or Luxembourg, both with very high standards of living, where huge amounts of money are stored with 'no questions asked', and yet the nations themselves having minimal value. It's always easy to look rich when you hold stolen goods for thieves...(In all fairness, the EU have cracked down severely on both, but the trend continues...)

 

[kEiThZ]

I am all for going the opposite tack - fight irrational rage with the same. If people want a show, give them one.

AoD

When you're the incumbent, that only makes you look worse. The upstarts always have the excuse of not being in power ("They're new to provincial politics...."). Wynne has a duty to look "presidential" if you will allow the term. If she looks unhinged, that will only seal the deal for swing voters.

I assert they should stick to talking policies. Work hard to connect those policies to tangible benefits for the voters. And they should preserve their base in the GTA by pointing how bad Fords were for Toronto.

If they start mudslinging I'm going to call my bookie and put money on Ford.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

When you're the incumbent, that only makes you look worse. The upstarts always have the excuse of not being in power ("They're new to provincial politics...."). Wynne has a duty to look "presidential" if you will allow the term. If she looks unhinged, that will only seal the deal for swing voters.
I assert they should stick to talking policies. Work hard to connect those policies to tangible benefits for the voters. And they should preserve their base in the GTA by pointing how bad Fords were for Toronto.
If they start mudslinging I'm going to call my bookie and put money on Ford.

Not so much so "unhinged" - but a right mix of anger and passion is an important aspect of character construction - the distant, careful, respectful can also be interpreted as fake, impersonal, elitist (!!) and without conviction. She is dealing with an opponent that need to be put in his place with fire and brimstone - that shall be what gets delivered.

I would go further than referring to his tenure (like who actually remember all that much of it outside GTA?) - I will go straight for him as our own Trump. You want to sleep with nativist forces - get defined by it.

AoD

 

[Jasmine18]

Wynne being mean would backfire she already seen as unlikeable already.