[isittimetomoveyet]

The un-intended consequence of congestion tolls on the gardiner.....a wide open freeway while King St./Lakeshore/Queen Street (and other even more local streets) are jammed with penny pinching commuters!!!

People will go to great lengths to avoid tolls...but getting out of their cars is not one of them. I remember when the 407 was first opened and it was free for a few months.....it got very quick acceptance and "everyone" was using it.....then the day the tolls came on I remember driving on it and wondering if I was the only person in the GTA who still had a car! People moved very quickly back to the overcrowded 401.....traffic eventually found its level but people will endure some pretty awful congestion to avoid tolls.

And thats why we need to wonder if tolls should be in place in a similar fashion to what the Netherlands is testing right now... GPS based tracking and tolling. Skymeter are the pioneers of this I think... and it seems interesting and highly flexible. Certain times of day cost a certain amount per road... the pricing becomes completely variable based on the conditions. Obviously this wouldnt be feasible if adequate transit didnt exist...

 

[afransen]

"Obviously this wouldnt be feasible if adequate transit didnt exist... "

Nonsense. That rationale needs to die, because transit will never be fully adequate. We need people to live closer to work.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

Nonsense. That rationale needs to die, because transit will never be fully adequate. We need people to live closer to work.

Such wisdom has never sounded so sweet.

 

[TOareaFan]

"Obviously this wouldnt be feasible if adequate transit didnt exist... "

Nonsense. That rationale needs to die, because transit will never be fully adequate. We need people to live closer to work.

Are you going to, also, mandate that dual-income/carreer couples be illigal? Or will both spouses have to select carreers that guarantee they can both live and work in the same community?

Hard, dogmatic, positions on this subject seldom have any resemblence to real life.

 

[Second_in_pie]

"Obviously this wouldnt be feasible if adequate transit didnt exist... "

Nonsense. That rationale needs to die, because transit will never be fully adequate. We need people to live closer to work.

If we give half an effort trying and stop expanding suburbia, transit could easily be fully adequate. We don't need to get ALL the cars off the road, but we do need to get a lot. Even if we funnel people on cars onto GO and let them all ride to work that's better than the whole GTA coming down the DVP in the morning (exaggerated, but gets the point across.)

 

[nfitz]

Are you going to, also, mandate that dual-income/carreer couples be illigal? Or will both spouses have to select carreers that guarantee they can both live and work in the same community?

I'm sure that there will always be some very specialised people around ... but it's hard to think of too many jobs where you can't both live in the same community!

 

[Dan416]

I think we need to be realistic. At best you'll have one person living close to their job. In most cases, both will have to travel. The best thing you can do is improve transit for everyone, not dictate to them that it's their fault for where they chose to live.

 

[afransen]

It's not just employees changing their habits, but employers as well. Employers should have some incentive to locate in areas that are accessible by means other than car. We can wait for our perfect $200 billion transit system before we give some price signals for that to happen, but that's the same as giving up.

 

[afransen]

I think we need to be realistic. At best you'll have one person living close to their job. In most cases, both will have to travel. The best thing you can do is improve transit for everyone, not dictate to them that it's their fault for where they chose to live.

Define 'close'? If a couple live equidistant between their jobs in terms of travel times, and they each have average commutes, it means that their workplaces are 2 hours apart. To me, that says that a lot of people are driving very far not out of necessity but because price signals that say "Driving cheap, real estate expensive". Of course people will move to Milton and commute to North York when they can have twice as much house for the money?

Beyond that, and we've had this discussion before, but why must highways be given away at a price of $0? If highways, why not cars, gasoline, tires, etc.? After all, transit isn't perfect. Why should we make people suffer the indignity of paying for scarce, rivalrous and excludable resources?

 

[cacruden]

We have the technology, put tolls everywhere - local streets, highways, etc.

When I was getting a ride from Miyakonojo to Kumamoto (2hr drive) and back one day - the road tolls added up to around $100CAD (mind you it was an expensive road to build). Tolls go to road maintenance, gas tax to transit (of course I don't drive )

 

[kEiThZ]

Aside from a societal shakeup, coming back on topic, Metrolinx still needs to be reformed to be able to execute its mandate effectively. There's been no news since those scant few rumours of the Premier being a little displeased at the pace of developments.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm sure that there will always be some very specialised people around ... but it's hard to think of too many jobs where you can't both live in the same community!

and I am equally sure that in Toronto this is a bigger factor than you might think.

Toronto is the centre of our nation's financial industry.....there are a huge number of unique head office type functions in the industry that exist solely in downtown Toronto.....as a major employer in the region, it is fairly safe to say that a lot of people in the GTA work in one of those jobs.

I understand you correctly, you are proposing that couple's who have one person employed in, for example, that industry:

1. live downtown....and;
2. make sure the other member of the couple gets employed in the same industry.....or;
3. works in their chosen field but downtown.

That would put a massive strain on those other industries/businesses to provide the employment....it would also create labour shortages in the other communities.

There are other "industries" that are also centred in the downtown (the legal profession, provincial government) that would produce the same strains.

Everyone living near work is a very attractive goal for individuals and societies alike......there are, however, many factors that contribute to our commuter society....two-income families are one of them....one that I think is often overlooked or underestimated.

 

[nfitz]

1. live downtown....and;
2. make sure the other member of the couple gets employed in the same industry.....or;
3. works in their chosen field but downtown.

1 - well live somewhere where it is easy to get downtown -
2 - why the same industry? There's only ONE industry in Toronto?
3 - pretty much.

I completely fail to understand the mindset of people who think that it is normal to live a 100-km or 1-hr drive from their place of employment.

 

[kEiThZ]

I completely fail to understand the mindset of people who think that it is normal to live a 100-km or 1-hr drive from their place of employment.

This has been discussed in threads in the Toronto issues section. The answer is, of course, far more complex. People make decision on where to live based on so many factors. Not in the least is the price of commuting vs. the return on their housing dollars. That's why I don't believe that improving transit alone will work. Building GO train lines out to Barrie will simply facilitate sprawl in Barrie. The greenbelt is a good start. The other side of the equation is Metrolinx.

That's why it's essential that Metrolinx succeed or we'll be choking on the fumes of commuters from across the GTA. I am looking forward to the Premier announcing a reform of Metrolinx soon.

 

[nfitz]

And perhaps that shake-up will include them to deal with the toll issue they are doging. Then they can have the funds they need guaranteed, rather than being at the whim of whichever party is in power.