[waterloowarrior]

The Quebec City-Windsor corridor is usually estimated as about 40-60% of Canada's population... so let's just say half of Canada's population.

Keithz, what if we divided Ontario and Quebec into 6-8 provinces, each with about 2-3 million people. Would it be OK to spend the money then?

 

[Disparishun]

All I am arguing is that the Ontario and Quebec governments should get going on the project. There is no need to wait for federal involvement.

Agreed. Sales tax. Penny per dollar. What's holding McGuinty up?

 

[MisterF]

Drunkalunk: that's what I was thinking, HSR in Ontario and Quebec might come with other improvements in other parts of the country. Like connecting Calgary to the rail system for example.

Keithz, I realize Canadians can be a petty bunch, but I think you're overstating how controversial this will be. Polls have shown that there's widespread support for HSR across the country.

Connections in the Maritimes were often conditions for those provinces joining confederation. The Bridge is a significant upgrade that did tie in PEI. If you've been to the East Coast recently, you know that maritimers visit PEI a lot more owing to bridge than they did when it was the dinghy that was referred to as a ferry. Heck, there are far more Ontarians and Quebecers who visit PEI because of that bridge.

Conversely, will there by significant numbers of Maritimers using our HSR? I doubt it. If you wanna go to Toronto from Fredicton, you aren't going to be driving over to Quebec City to grab the HSR.

You could make the same argument though - if HSR is built, more people will travel between Ontario and Quebec. There would probably be more Maritimers and Americans visiting here if we had HSR, and existing travellers who fly in would be more likely to go to other cities.

Whereas HSR between two largest provinces, along a corridor containing what, 30+% of the Canadian population and a similiar percentage of industrial activity, is not "nationally relevant"?

Actually it's close to double that. 18 million people live in southern Ontario and Quebec, which is 56% of Canada's population.

 

[dunkalunk]

Depr...errr...Recession? (DEEP RE-ce-SSION)

If there is ever time to make a shift, it is now. Its somewhat frustrating to hear that the auto industry; an industry that refuses to innovate, receive what is essentially a grant from federal and provincial governments. (Let's face it, the way things are going, we're probably never going to get that money back.)

Ontario should be convincing Seimens, Alstom, and of course Bombardier that there is a market for trains in North America and encouraging them to build plants in Ontario.
No doubt that some auto parts manufacturers could be re-tooled to build high speed parts (and buses too). We have one of the world's largest hydroelectric projects and some of the greatest renewable energy and Nuclear potential. And don't forget Hamilton's steelworks.

We have everything we need to build high speed rail and other sustainable infrastructure right here. If Obama's promise for more rail and transit infrastructure and Biden's history of rail advocacy hold true, then there will be no shortage of customers.

Unfortunately, as it's been said many times, there is complete lack of political will in Canada. Harper's a conservative and McGuinty is a pushover. Until we see a change of government at the federal level (at least), I don't see much being done in the way of major investment in rail and local transit infrastructure. Personally, I give it 8 months, just in time for that deferred high speed rail report that was promised to be finished by now to land on Ignatieff's desk.

Aside: was the MTO's job always just highways or am I missing something?

 

[dunkalunk]

Drunkalunk: that's what I was thinking, HSR in Ontario and Quebec might come with other improvements in other parts of the country. Like connecting Calgary to the rail system for example.

It's dunkalunk. I don't mean to be anal, but my name isn't meant to imply anything. In retrospect, I probably could have thought of something better, but my name is Duncan and people call me that on occasion, so i figured why not. Just think "honky tonk ba donkadonk" and i promise you won't forget to omit the "r". Kthxbi!

 

[MisterF]

It's dunkalunk. I don't mean to be anal, but my name isn't meant to imply anything. In retrospect, I probably could have thought of something better, but my name is Duncan and people call me that on occasion, so i figured why not. Just think "honky tonk ba donkadonk" and i promise you won't forget to omit the "r". Kthxbi!

My bad. Sorry about that, Druncan.

 

[dunkalunk]

Lolosaurus!

Moving along...

Depr...errr...Recession? (DEEP RE-ce-SSION)

If there is ever time to make a shift, it is now. Its somewhat frustrating to hear that the auto industry; an industry that refuses to innovate, receive what is essentially a grant from federal and provincial governments. (Let's face it, the way things are going, we're probably never going to get that money back.)

Ontario should be convincing Seimens, Alstom, and of course Bombardier that there is a market for trains in North America and encouraging them to build plants in Ontario.
No doubt that some auto parts manufacturers could be re-tooled to build high speed parts (and buses too). We have one of the world's largest hydroelectric projects and some of the greatest renewable energy and Nuclear potential. And don't forget Hamilton's steelworks.

We have everything we need to build high speed rail and other sustainable infrastructure right here. If Obama's promise for more rail and transit infrastructure and Biden's history of rail advocacy hold true, then there will be no shortage of customers.

Unfortunately, as it's been said many times, there is complete lack of political will in Canada. Harper's a conservative and McGuinty is a pushover. Until we see a change of government at the federal level (at least), I don't see much being done in the way of major investment in rail and local transit infrastructure. Personally, I give it 8 months, just in time for that deferred high speed rail report that was promised to be finished by now to land on Ignatieff's desk.

Aside: was the MTO's job always just highways or am I missing something?

Any thoughts?

 

[kEiThZ]

If we tie other important infrastructure projects into the same bill, there would be no reason for MPs from other provinces to refuse. Cascadia and Alberta High Speed Rail, Wind Power, Tidal Power ect.

I am all for it. I also think there's a case to be made for a south Prairie line: Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary. It's probably relatively cheap to build, and would help sell our new national vision of HSR.

The Quebec City-Windsor corridor is usually estimated as about 40-60% of Canada's population... so let's just say half of Canada's population.

Keithz, what if we divided Ontario and Quebec into 6-8 provinces, each with about 2-3 million people. Would it be OK to spend the money then?

Hey, I didn't make the provincial boundaries. But we have to recognize their limitations in our advocacy. I'd be willing to bet that it'd be easier to sell a HSR running through the Maritimes than it is to sell the Ontario-Quebec train.

Keithz, I realize Canadians can be a petty bunch, but I think you're overstating how controversial this will be. Polls have shown that there's widespread support for HSR across the country.

I am sceptical. When you ask someone if they support HSR, of course they'll support it...until they realize their tax dollars will be helping pay for it and as a Vancouverite or a Haligonian they'll probably never use it. This is why I think we need to start studying a national HSR plan and sell the whole plan at once not just this one piece.

 

[afransen]

You could make vague references to a Halifax extension as a 'Phase 3' part of the project (Tor-Ott-Mtl as phase one, Windsor to Quebec as phase 2). We got away with talking about the confederation bridge for decades before actually delivering.

 

[Dan416]

I am all for it. I also think there's a case to be made for a south Prairie line: Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary. It's probably relatively cheap to build, and would help sell our new national vision of HSR.



Hey, I didn't make the provincial boundaries. But we have to recognize their limitations in our advocacy. I'd be willing to bet that it'd be easier to sell a HSR running through the Maritimes than it is to sell the Ontario-Quebec train.




I am sceptical. When you ask someone if they support HSR, of course they'll support it...until they realize their tax dollars will be helping pay for it and as a Vancouverite or a Haligonian they'll probably never use it. This is why I think we need to start studying a national HSR plan and sell the whole plan at once not just this one piece.

I really think the majority of Canadians would support an HSR along the Toronto-Montreal corridor. The ROC isn't that small-minded. They know Toronto and Montreal are our alpha cities (along with Vancouver but it's just too far). Plus if you're visiting one, then you could easily visit the other via the HSR

 

[kEiThZ]

I really think the majority of Canadians would support an HSR along the Toronto-Montreal corridor. The ROC isn't that small-minded. They know Toronto and Montreal are our alpha cities (along with Vancouver but it's just too far). Plus if you're visiting one, then you could easily visit the other via the HSR

I have my pessimistic moments....but I hope for my sake and yours, the optimism proves right. I'd like to see this built in my lifetime!

 

[Dan416]

There's still a lot of improvements they could probably make just by spending money on little upgrades along the way. I'm sure some people on here know what specifically they are.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I really think the majority of Canadians would support an HSR along the Toronto-Montreal corridor.

You will probably in your lifetime see an HSR line between Montreal-New York before anything even gets decided here in Ontario.

 

[dunkalunk]

The case for high speed rail in ontario-quebec would be much easier to make than a high speed rail link from Montreal to New York. I would even argue that a high speed rail corridor from Ottawa to Quebec City with a reliable connection to Sherbrooke would be essential for a NYC-MTL line to be feasible.

Consider the 300km between Montreal and Albany; there are no major population centres except for perhaps Burlington, Vermont with 200,000. You are also trying to cut a straight path through 150 km of mountains on the west side or 200km of mountains on the Burlington side.

Comparatively, in the Windsor-Quebec corridor, population centres are much closer together and thanks to the st. lawrence-great lakes basin have relatively flat terrain to build on.

Also, the Empire Corridor from NYC to Buffalo via Albany would seem more likely to get built first, with population centres closer together and in a linear pattern and being just a stone's throw away from the golden horseshoe.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility of a high speed rail link between Montreal and NYC, but a lot of work has to be done on our side to make a high speed connection between Montreal and New York worthwhile.

However, politics is a fickle business and anything could happen...

 

[Paul Langan]

High Speed Rail Toronto Symposium & Stuff

I try and keep up across the country with the forums that talk on high speed rail and Urban Toronto is a good one. Interesting discussion lately.

FYI- I have tried very hard to ensure all the latest high speed rail studies are available on the High Speed Rail Canada website http://highspeedrail.ca . You can find for free
1. Summary of the 1995 Feds/ON/QC Study,
2.2004 Edmonton/Calgary Study and
3.2009 Rothman Institute Uof T Economic Working Paper on the site.

Just an advance notice for Urban Toronto forum members, we are coming to Toronto for a high speed rail symposium Saturday April 25. There may be a minimum cost of <$10. and pre-registration to attend. My intention is have a quality speakers like at the previous Kitchener symposium. I am confirming the BIG 3 - Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens. Stay tuned to the website real soon for all the details.

Keep up the good discussion.

Paul Langan
High Speed Rail Canada Founder
plangan107 at yahoo.com
http://grandvitesse.ca
http://highspeedrail.ca