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One thing that always strikes me about our densificiation efforts (and this has been discussed elsewhere) is how poorly they accomodate families. Having spent half my childhood overseas it always struck me as strange when moving to Canada that there are not a lot of flats/condos with multiple bedrooms. Most of the newer buildings don't even offer 3 bedroom layouts (the minimum for most 2+2 families) and have fewer and fewer 2 bedroom units on offer. Next, for whatever reason, we also do a poor job of building in park space near our condo parks. If we want folks to ditch the detached house with backyard you have to at least make it somewhat convenient with parks and schools close by and affordably priced 3 bedroom units. No sane parent is going to commit to spending half a million dollars to live in a 2 bedroom condo at yonge/eg with a spouse,two kids and probably a pet, the way these places are planned right now.

And I sincerely resent guys like Richard Florida looking down on good sane folks like my hypothetical parent for trying to do the best for their families with the system that exists today. It's not the fault of surburbanites that all we build are overpriced shoe box sized condos that are largely impractical for family life (far from schools, far from parks, etc.). Make condos family friendly and you'll quickly find that densification targets will be easily met.
 
One thing that always strikes me about our densificiation efforts (and this has been discussed elsewhere) is how poorly they accomodate families. Having spent half my childhood overseas it always struck me as strange when moving to Canada that there are not a lot of flats/condos with multiple bedrooms. Most of the newer buildings don't even offer 3 bedroom layouts (the minimum for most 2+2 families) and have fewer and fewer 2 bedroom units on offer. Next, for whatever reason, we also do a poor job of building in park space near our condo parks. If we want folks to ditch the detached house with backyard you have to at least make it somewhat convenient with parks and schools close by and affordably priced 3 bedroom units. No sane parent is going to commit to spending half a million dollars to live in a 2 bedroom condo at yonge/eg with a spouse,two kids and probably a pet, the way these places are planned right now.

And I sincerely resent guys like Richard Florida looking down on good sane folks like my hypothetical parent for trying to do the best for their families with the system that exists today. It's not the fault of surburbanites that all we build are overpriced shoe box sized condos that are largely impractical for family life (far from schools, far from parks, etc.). Make condos family friendly and you'll quickly find that densification targets will be easily met.

Why all the hatin' on my boy Dick Flo? He jazzes up this town!

The problem is that so many of the units are bought by the investor class and there's no rental market for larger units. As it is the return on most of the new units, even the micro sized ones, is thin as hell, but on larger units are bets are off. So until developers start marketing only to end users you won't find many buildings with 3+ bedrooms.

On the park/open space issues, the city (planners, councillors) is actually pushing this really hard on developers now. You will see more park/open space in the future, even in midtown Toronto. That is during the next building boom in 2-3 years from now...
 
This is one reason why I think townhouses and the development of secondary nodes around other downtowns makes a lot of sense. Townhouses can ramp up densities, while often being more affordable for families. Some of the other GTA downtowns - Hamilton in particular - have the bones and some of the 'creativity' that Florida advocates, without the BS. Because we know it can be hard to afford anything beyond a shoebox downtown, especially with the shrinkage of the middle class and the investors that have been inflating prices.
 
I also don't think anybody is seriously suggesting people seek to "wallow in picket fence, master-planned, auto-dependent, monotonous cul-de-sac suburbia." Nobody is saying that, or at least not so simplistically.

I would disagree in that I think there are legions of families seeking just that very thing. Well, not as characterized by Scarb, which clearly shows a biased blind spot where suburbia is concerned, but with regards to a detched house with a little land, the ease of access and mobility afforded by a car, and a community structure designed around children, etc. Do kids care about urban living, art galleries and starbucks and so on? We place such a lot of emphasis on the car in defining suburbia, but maybe the emphasis should be more on the 'family' unit which for so many seems to sit quite cozily with suburbia.
 
I completely agree. I think the focus on intensification has been too much on the frivolous stuff, coffee shops, restaurants, night life. Even in the advertising campaigns of most builders always show young professionals or older empty-nesters.

Coming from Europe, the mentality of families here is completely different. Most people in living in Europe are used to raising families in multi-unit dwellings. However, those dwellings are usually much better laid out and larger than the high-rise condo's here.

In North America, families are encouraged to buy a house/townhome in the suburbs. Partially it is about affordability, but it's also a very strong cultural thing as well. If you open up the home buyers magazine, the ads are mostly targeted towards families, especially young families. They advertise lots of land, open areas, parks and such.

Speaking of parks and open areas, I personally find the definition of a park to be very loosely used here. In the suburbs, any small patch of land with a couple of trees and a bench qualifies for a park or park-ette. To me, what qualifies as a park would be High Park, Edwards Gardens, G Ross Lord, Earl Bales, Allan Gardens, Queen's Park. This is nothing more than a glorified lawn, yet developers and communities all advertise this as fantastic parkland. I find that the older Toronto suburbs have much better and larger parks lands than the new suburbs of Vaughan, Markham, Richmond Hill, etc...

I find that the older apartment complexes, for all their faults were located in areas that provided a lot of open space, often next to ravines. The problem with the current condo developments is that they are crammed together very tightly. The units themselves are small, and dark.

To attract families, you need large and affordable units, close to TTC, libraries, parks, schools and some retails. If all of that is in walking distance, families will move in. Certain areas of Toronto do a better job at this than others. Downtown Toronto I find to be somewhat unfriendly to children. It's too busy and there are not a lot of child-friendly areas.
 
The "problem" is again, the lack of choice - TCHC are practically the only ones who are building non-townhome/single-detached multiunit apartments.

AoD
 
I have, perhaps you could spell it out for me?

All right, Glen, as Archivist correctly pointed out, I never said that nobody chooses suburbia for the very romantic and clicheed notion of living in a low density environment with a yard. There are people out there that fit this description, whose primary motivation for moving to suburbia is to enjoy the creature comforts of a single family, detached house with a yard and a garage, but they represent a minority of the people who live in suburbia. People are much more pragmatic; if they "choose" to live in suburbia, their primary motivation is almost certainly more complex: family are nearby, their job is nearby, the school district is better, it is affordable, they grew up in suburbia and are unaware of different lifestyle choices, there are cultural support mechanisms for their ethnic group, etc. These all seem like much more plausible reasons for living in suburbia than "space", "a yard" and "barbecuing" and, yet, that is exactly what pundits like Kay and Brooks ascribe the growth of suburbia to.

The majority of the real factors influencing suburban growth are outside of the control of individual people: they are socially-embedded or perpetuate a legacy. For example, if every North American city is hooked up to a freeway network, the towns that will fail will be those that aren't on a highway node, and thus the structure of the automobile hegemony imposes demands on how development takes shape around North American cities. The dominance of the automobile and decentralized suburban development is not due to its inherent superiority over public transit and centralization, it was a long, steady process involving rewriting tax codes to support Keynesian theories of consumption during the Great Depression and, in that vein, a federally-sponsored project to build roadways (interstate highway act) and provide extremely subsidized mortgage assistance to returning WW2 veterans under the condition that they buy newly built houses. Along with policies of racial discrimination in central cities, overt redlining of inner city neighbourhoods, writing off taxes collected on suburban shopping malls and funding schools through localized property taxes, the fix was in for the inner city and suburbs "won" out. Of course, in Canada we didn't have nearly these many constraints but we did have the substantial constraint of being completely tied to the American economy and transportation infrastructure and therefore we, naturally, fell in line.

You now see that once this physical style of development became manifest, it was very hard to reverse and so, over 50 years later, suburban-style sprawl development remains the dominant form of development in North America. This is the extremely well-documented story of the origins of suburbia and any fanciful notion that it was based on consumer choice is completely and patently false. In fact, in surveying all the literature on suburban origins and dominant growth patterns, I have never, ever seen any defense of suburbia and auto-dominance put forth by someone who was not beholden to libertarian economic theory. That includes you, Glen. In fact, the whole concept of market-driven choice in urban growth was pioneered at the University of Chicago's school of policy, conveniently during the Milton Friedman years. Many of the pundits who believe in your theory that suburbs are desired by conscious consumers was advanced by people who either attended or teach at the University of Chicago, including David Brooks and urban theorist Robert Bruegemann, the author of the controversial book "Sprawl".

So I hope I have enlightened both you and Whoaccio on why suburban sprawl is not motivated by personal choices. Again, I freely admit that there are some people who would rather live a suburban life but are bound by structural restrictions on where they live and I can't think of a better example than our old, ex-communicated forum member, Dichotomy. Now, here was a man who hated the noise, density and hustle of living in downtown Toronto and really enjoyed driving his car. I really think he would have been happier, and perhaps less aggressive on the forum, had he lived where he wanted to out in the 'burbs. And, yet, he was confined to living in the gay village of Church and Wellesley because he was a homosexual and the sorts of social support systems which he and his partner rely on are nonexistent in Vaughan or Milton or Whitby. People aren't open to choice as much as they are confronted by obstacles. When you take the sum of these barriers, you can easily why the decision on where to live -whether urban or suburban - suddenly boils down to picking between a very small sample of nearly identical properties in a nearly identical locations.
 
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re: urban infill question posted earlier

Agreed. It is simply a matter of how much of the old will the city agree to let go of in favour of the new.
 
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In all of this condo boom and "creative class" explosion downtown Toronto has seen in the past decade or so, we have really screwed up on building schools. What could possibly be more important to a "creative class" than quality education, and here is one area where the suburbs tend to have a clear and quantifiable advantage against "downtown." We should have tried something similar to what Lastman did with Earl Haig. There is one area where you could see the clear importance owners around NYCC good education.
 
Hipster, thanks for spelling it out. I disagree though.

It is a convenient argument to say that we all want our cake and to eat it too. I would be great for everyone to be able to live close to work and family, in the neighbourhood of their liking with all the benefits of having close by amenities and live in an affordable detached house with a yard. It is impossible for everyone to do so.

I would love to to live in a affordable detached house at Young and Bloor with a decent size yard. I would also love it if my kids could play outside, under watch of myself or neighbours. Obviously that is impossible, so I like many most make the trade offs that best suit me. Nothing more or less. When I am older, I speculate my wants will change with my my lifestyle.

The dominance of the automobile and decentralized suburban development is not due to its inherent superiority over public transit and centralization, it was a long, steady process involving rewriting tax codes to support Keynesian theories of consumption during the Great Depression

Care to point out where public transit is not, at minimum, as equally subsidised? Furthermore explain how Canada and Australia also produced similar urban/suburban environments in absence of a 'new deal' interstate network. Also missing from your analysis is the compounding influence of land supply.
 
Here's why I lived in suburban Waterloo: my job was across the street (no car for me as I wanted to save as much $ as possible: it worked:)), there was decent transit service (iExpress) within a 2 minute walk, and 24 hour shopping plaza across the street. Sure, I hated every minute of the surroundings, but it was quiet, and the mature suburban single family housing neighbourhood had its appeal--nice manicured front lawns, large tree canopy, etc. Most people who lived in this neighbourhood worked nearby, or went to the nearby universities.

Here's why I moved to my neighbourhood in Toronto: close to subway station, close to hip neighbourhood (the Junction, Roncevalles, etc) and it's cheaper than my ideal 'hood: the Annex. Most people in my area are Russian and Serbian immigrants--who live here because they have relatives/friends living in the buildings around here, yet when asked what their dream is, they all say "buy a house in x suburb because that's where all the Russians/etc are moving." "It's cleaner" in the suburbs they say, Toronto downtown is "ugly and old and dirty" they mumble--ignorant imho.:)

So, I'd argue mostly second/third/etc generation GTA-ers appreciate the older parts of Toronto, with the exception of some ethnic groups that live in an area by choice (Bathurst/Lawrence/Eglinton=Jewish comes to mind....) With few exceptions, the gentrified sections of Toronto are really becoming white ghettos, which doesn't surprise me, as these people have generally been settled in the GTA longer than anyone else.

What many people forget: Miss/Oakville/Thornhill/etc have vibrant old (prewar) communities, so it's not surprising many of their citizens would be comfortable in their areas--be it older suburbia or newish tract housing. I think American suburbs and Canadian suburbs really can't be compared, except in general built form.
 
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As evident from this thread, there is no consensus on whether people willingly choose or reluctantly accept life in the suburbs.
I expect it is really a combination of those plus many other factors.
What we can likely agree is that the present suburban model is ineffecient, unsustainable and outdated.

Recycling the Suburbs
From Time.com
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884756,00.html
The American suburb as we know it is dying. The implosion began with the housing bust, which started in and has hit hardest the once vibrant neighborhoods outside the urban core. Shopping malls and big-box retail stores, the commercial anchors of the suburbs, are going dark — an estimated 148,000 stores closed last year, the most since 2001. But the shift is deeper than the economic downturn. Thanks to changing demographics, including a steady decline in the percentage of households with kids and a growing preference for urban -amenities among Americans young and old, the suburban dream of the big house with the big lawn is vanishing. The Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech predicts that by 2025 there will be a surplus of 22 million large-lot homes (on one-sixth of an acre [675 sq m] or more) in the U.S.

Environmentalists will celebrate the demise of sprawling suburbs, which left the nation addicted to cars. But all the steel, concrete and asphalt that went into making the suburbs can't simply be tossed out in favor of something new, even if it's perfectly green. That would be worse. "As much as possible, we need to redirect development to existing communities and infrastructure," says Kaid Benfield, director of the smart-growth program at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "Otherwise, we're just eating up more land and natural resources."(See pictures of America's vacant commercial space epidemic.)

The suburbs need to be remade, and just such a transformation is under way in regions that were known for some of the worst sprawl in the U.S. Communities as diverse as Lakewood, Colo., and Long Beach, Calif., have repurposed boarded-up malls as mixed-use developments with retail stores, offices and apartments. In auto-dependent suburbs that were built without a traditional center, shopping malls offer the chance to create downtowns without destroying existing infrastructure, by recycling what's known as underperforming asphalt. "All of these projects are developer-driven, because the market wants them," says Ellen Dunham-Jones, a co-author of the new book Retrofitting Suburbia.

Not every suburb will make it. The fringes of a suburb like Riverside in Southern California, where housing prices have fallen more than 20% since the bust began, could be too diffuse to thrive in a future where density is no longer taboo. It'll be the older inner suburbs like Tysons Corner, Va., that will have the mass transit, public space and economic gravity to thrive postrecession. Though creative cities will grow more attractive for empty-nest -retirees and young graduates alike, we won't all be moving to New York. Many Americans will still prefer the space of the suburbs — including the parking spaces. "People want to balance the privacy of the suburbs with more public and social areas," says Dunham-Jones. But the result will be a U.S. that is more sustainable — environmentally and economically.

Will Toronto Suburbs suffer (or benifit) a similar fate?
Will we remake our suburbs to fit changing demographics, to better meet sustainability goals and shift to a more urban lifestyle?

"But most Canadians have recognized to a greater or lesser extent that despite much of the so-called progress of the affluent society, essential ingredients to a meaningful life seem to be either entirely lacking, or at best, difficult to grasp."
Alex Campbell
 
I think people forget that there are major differences between American and Canadian suburbs. For starters, their suburbs are usually a lot further away (though we Canadians spend more time commuting because of our higher usage of transit) and the average American home is a lot larger than its Canadian counterpart. Using American definitions many of our outer suburbs could well be considered inner suburbs down south.

http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13107733
http://www.demographia.com/db-hsize.pdf

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/07/12/commute-time.html
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/004489.html
 
So, I'd argue mostly second/third/etc generation GTA-ers appreciate the older parts of Toronto, with the exception of some ethnic groups that live in an area by choice (Bathurst/Lawrence/Eglinton=Jewish comes to mind....) With few exceptions, the gentrified sections of Toronto are really becoming white ghettos, which doesn't surprise me, as these people have generally been settled in the GTA longer than anyone else.

It's a bit simpler than that, isn't it? Aspirational ethnic neighbourhoods tend to be more suburban. By contrast, gentrified neighbourhoods tend not to be organized along ethnic lines.

Obviously, the more generations a family has been here, the more ethnic identity gives way to assimilation. As ethnic ties take on less weight in one's social circles and personal identity, aspiring to gentrified urban neighbourhoods rather than to ethnically-identified suburban ones becomes a better and better fit.

The real question is, why do aspirational ethnic neighbourhoods tend to be more suburban? One obvious factor is family-friendliness. You can have housing that is affordable for families yet is in good shape, because the land itself is less highly valued.
 
I think part of the "immigrants want to move to the 'burbs" has to do with the fact they view their "old" country and "old" Toronto as dated: they want the new new new! Also, immigrants tend to work hard to save up for a down payment, so want value for their money. Add the fact many ethnic "ghettos" exist around the suburban GTA and it makes it easy to understand the need for community.

Perhaps builders prey on immigrants as well? Using sales associates from x ethnic background, they aggressively market to that group via local ethnic newspapers etc.
 

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