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Northern Light
Superstar
To be fair, he didn't suggest that; he didn't give a percentage either; what he said was that his business is still down about 20% from pre-Covid and that's a tough hit.
He knows he has some customers, who make large purchases and drive to the market, and he's concerned that some of them being elderly or have other mobility issues have difficulty w/walking their purchases any distance. He's concerned it will be another hit, just one too many for him to sustain.
I think he's got it wrong on a couple of fronts, but I do understand his concern, and I'm irked that no one appears to have had the interactive conservation w/him required so that he could consider things more fully.
I would argue
a) That this change will increase walking traffic in the market and cycling traffic and increase its tourist appeal (though admittedly tourists don't buy a lot from butchers), but there is a potential for market growth as well as contraction.
b) That customers making large enough purchases could perhaps be helped to the car/offered home delivery for an additional fee (or not, if there purchase is sufficiently large).
Perhaps he has weighed these things, but we didn't hear that in his brief submission.
He did address that some customers complained that they couldn't manage to get their goods up the stairs at the green P, it too heavy for them.
There is currently no elevator at this garage; but one is planned for this year to open in 2024, I believe. I'm not clear if he knew that.
Northern Light
Superstar
Another speaker is against on the grounds that it will promote gentrification and increased rents for residents and businesses alike............
facepalming_brooklynite
Active Member
I wonder if they are surprised by the opposition. I certainly am. The proposal seems so eminently reasonable, and they already have the experience of occasional car-free Sundays. The whole thing seems like such a no-brainer that it's hard to understand how anyone could be opposed to it.
Northern Light
Superstar
Meeting just wrapped, it will take me a moment to process what actually came out of the meat grinder on this one.
Edit:
So it looks like the report passed essentially as is, meaning pedestrian-only will be a post-construction pilot, not designed in from day one.
The following motions passed:
There was a lot of heated opposition, including from market residents as opposed to just businesses. This all seems so odd, I think a lot of people didn't come out to various consultation meetings or give input at the appropriate points.
It also strikes me that the City really needs to learn how to anticipate questions and concerns and have good answers at the ready; rather than being reactive.
Edit:
So it looks like the report passed essentially as is, meaning pedestrian-only will be a post-construction pilot, not designed in from day one.
The following motions passed:
There was a lot of heated opposition, including from market residents as opposed to just businesses. This all seems so odd, I think a lot of people didn't come out to various consultation meetings or give input at the appropriate points.
It also strikes me that the City really needs to learn how to anticipate questions and concerns and have good answers at the ready; rather than being reactive.
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smably
Senior Member
I, for one, did not expect to see Sook-Yin Lee come to speak out against a pedestrianization project.
Unfortunately, this sounds like a result that will please no one.
Northern Light
Superstar
I too find the result disappointing, I would love to get insight into staff's perception of how this unfolded. I just might manage that. Whether I can report back.....tbd.
***
Though, I do think we need to take some solace that this will still result in new/widened sidewalks, more street trees and permeable pavers, new pedestrian lights, along with lower speed limits and pinch points to slow traffic. So this isn't status quo, though it is a bit less ambitious than many of us would have liked.
afransen
Senior Member
A shame, to be sure. This is one of the most obvious neighbourhoods in the city to pedestrianize. Could we not err on the side of designing for pedestrianization and allowing for vehicular access in the extremely unlikely event it proves unpopular.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
On Saturday at 7pm I drove to Union Station to pick-up the kid coming home from university. My usual route is south on Parliament, west on Richmond, south on University east on Front, pick-up, and home.
At the corner of University and Front it was chaos. Thousands of exiting Blue Jays fans trying to walk to Union Station combined with dozens of cars blocked in the middle of the intersection, everyone honking, cars crossing to the other side to try to squeeze past. So I called 51 Div and said "it's chaos down here at Uni and Front, tempers are flaring. If you could send a TPS officer they'd quickly stop cars from entering and blocking the intersection and ensure pedestrian safety." The desk cop laughed at me, saying "this is the same as any rush hour in Toronto", to which I replied "I live here, I know what it's like, and this is not normal, this is dangerous" and the desk cop laughed again and said "there's no one to send", to which I replied "have a nice day" and hung up.
I wanted to say, "we have nearly 6,000 police officers, where they? What are you doing right now, how about dropping the phone and go down to help?". But even my upper middle class, white, male privilege can only go so far to avoid police retribution.
If developers have to pay for cops to play traffic cone, why not make Rogers pay for traffic control after their games?
At the corner of University and Front it was chaos. Thousands of exiting Blue Jays fans trying to walk to Union Station combined with dozens of cars blocked in the middle of the intersection, everyone honking, cars crossing to the other side to try to squeeze past. So I called 51 Div and said "it's chaos down here at Uni and Front, tempers are flaring. If you could send a TPS officer they'd quickly stop cars from entering and blocking the intersection and ensure pedestrian safety." The desk cop laughed at me, saying "this is the same as any rush hour in Toronto", to which I replied "I live here, I know what it's like, and this is not normal, this is dangerous" and the desk cop laughed again and said "there's no one to send", to which I replied "have a nice day" and hung up.
I wanted to say, "we have nearly 6,000 police officers, where they? What are you doing right now, how about dropping the phone and go down to help?". But even my upper middle class, white, male privilege can only go so far to avoid police retribution.
If developers have to pay for cops to play traffic cone, why not make Rogers pay for traffic control after their games?
crs1026
Senior Member
^My experience from going to Jays games is that there are many police officers deployed, especially along the lower routes and Front Street. Whether they are deployed in all the right paces for maximum traffic control I can't say, but they are certainly out there
But really, this is no different than what one experiences at Wrigley Field or Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park when the game lets out. Far better than the 10-mile traffic jam one sees around most major US football fields or road-centric baseball stadiums after a game. Try downtown Tampa when a game ends at Amalie .... or even Dunedin during spring training.
Perhaps driving to Union to make a pickup at a peak downtown crowd time is just not realistic. Could the "kid" not have hopped on the subway or GO and got picked up a little further away ?
- Paul
But really, this is no different than what one experiences at Wrigley Field or Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park when the game lets out. Far better than the 10-mile traffic jam one sees around most major US football fields or road-centric baseball stadiums after a game. Try downtown Tampa when a game ends at Amalie .... or even Dunedin during spring training.
Perhaps driving to Union to make a pickup at a peak downtown crowd time is just not realistic. Could the "kid" not have hopped on the subway or GO and got picked up a little further away ?
- Paul
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Oh, it was fine for me sitting in the car, as we always leave plenty of time. It was dangerous for everyone else on foot due to idiot drivers getting impatient - that's what I wanted to cops to deal with, not to clear an easy path for me.
I've no interest in the kid or myself taking the subway, too many junkies, vagrants, beggars and potentially violent crazies. Once you take the subway in Singapore like I have, there's just no going back. I fell in love with Singaporeans sense of public order combined with public freedoms and safety.
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nfitz
Superstar
It's not THAT bad.
I just can't fathom living so close to downtown and trying to drive along Front as a Blue Jays game ends. Or heck ever, unless it's the middle of the night, of I'm carrying stuff that's too big to lug on transit.
Beyond that, I can't imagine actually complaining about this - it doesn't look good.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I’m describing, not complaining about the situation on the subway. If the city and TTC wants to surrender the subway to our downtrodden that’s their business - I’m not a customer and have no valid opinion. I do take the streetcar occasionally on weekends, but if the family of four are going to the Eaton Centre on a Sunday and staying more than two hours, for example it’s cheaper to drive and park than take transit.
As for driving on Saturday, I must admit that I’d forgotten the Jays were getting out, but even then the drive wasn’t bad….it was the danger to pedestrians not the traffic that caught my attention. My complaint was that the TPS should be present to keep pedestrians safe - the point of this thread. It’s funny how you‘re triggered by my mention of the subway and my choice to drive to Union, but it’s not the point of my post nor of this thread.
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nfitz
Superstar
I've never even seen anything odd during or since Covid on the Yonge University line south of Bloor (and I seldom go north). Streetcar and buses and Line 2 are a bigger issues.
I hadn't realised you'd left downtown, I think you used a short walk to the Eaton's Centre.
I'm probably closer than you now then, being about a 25-minute streetcar ride away. But I can't imagine driving. It's not like shopping is just A to B to A. But invariably A to B to C to D to E to A.. And it's really annoying to go from E back to B to get your car - a short walk but still maybe a 15 to 20 minute walk, making it quicker to just take transit back. Not to mention traffic and parking annoyances. More often or not, there's a greater difference between places I'm shopping that walking, so it's a free transit ride from C to D. Total cost of $6.60
3.5 hours parking at Dundas Square is $18. 2 adult TTC fares is $13.20 at most. Two teens adds $4.70. $17.90 total. I'm not seeing much savings. And even more expensive if you are there longer.
Of course there are pockets, even near downtown, where transit isn't that available.
Northern Light
Superstar
He's still in Cabbagetown, a lot closer than you to TEC!