[Max Sterling]

The easiest way is to address this is to remove the expectation of pedestrian predictability and make it nearly always driver responsibility for pedestrian collisions. If you saw a child or maybe dog at the side of the road, you would slow down, and wait to see what it did, you have no expectation that the kid or dog won't walk into traffic. So, allow pedestrians to cross the road anywhere and make car drivers absolutely liable. That removes the "pedestrians are idiots" excuse. You'd have to drive like you might be criminally responsible for a vehicular death at any moment.

I disagree. Why take away pedestrian responsibility when we should be asking them to take MORE responsibilty for their own safety especially when its so damn easy to do? I would bet that probably 90%+ pedestrian/vehicle accidents wouldn't happen if pedestrians simply paid more attention when they were crossing a road. I mean if people would just look to their left and right and keep doing so while crossing a street, they should be able to judge if they have enough time and space to cross and therefore almost always avoid being hit. It really is that simple and I don't know why its so controversial to ask pedestrians to do their part in keeping themselves safe.

If you ever go to the Toronto subreddit where everytime there's a post about a pedestrian being injured or killed by a vehicle, the majority of people will always blame the driver and/or road design. The thing that I can never understand is that if people know that there are a ton of bad drivers on the road and that road design isn't always ideal for pedestrians, then why aren't people taking MORE precautions when crossing the road? I'll never get why people acknowledge that for various reasons there are many bad drivers in Toronto and yet they cross a street like it was the exact opposite and that most drivers were courteous, attentive and always mindful of pedestrians and cyclists.

The bottom line is pedestrians need to take responsibility for their own safety because you can't be crazy enough to acknowledge that there are many bad drivers on the roads and then turn around and trust your life these same drivers and hope they don't injure or even kill you. We can always keep demanding that things get better to protect pedestrians from dying, but at the same time people need to adapt to the reality that they're living in right now and do as much as they can to keep themselves from harm.

 

[tmlittle]

I disagree. Why take away pedestrian responsibility when we should be asking them to take MORE responsibilty for their own safety especially when its so damn easy to do? I would bet that probably 90%+ pedestrian/vehicle accidents wouldn't happen if pedestrians simply paid more attention when they were crossing a road. I mean if people would just look to their left and right and keep doing so while crossing a street, they should be able to judge if they have enough time and space to cross and therefore almost always avoid being hit. It really is that simple and I don't know why its so controversial to ask pedestrians to do their part in keeping themselves safe.

If you ever go to the Toronto subreddit where everytime there's a post about a pedestrian being injured or killed by a vehicle, the majority of people will always blame the driver and/or road design. The thing that I can never understand is that if people know that there are a ton of bad drivers on the road and that road design isn't always ideal for pedestrians, then why aren't people taking MORE precautions when crossing the road? I'll never get why people acknowledge that for various reasons there are many bad drivers in Toronto and yet they cross a street like it was the exact opposite and that most drivers were courteous, attentive and always mindful of pedestrians and cyclists.

The bottom line is pedestrians need to take responsibility for their own safety because you can't be crazy enough to acknowledge that there are many bad drivers on the roads and then turn around and trust your life these same drivers and hope they don't injure or even kill you. We can always keep demanding that things get better to protect pedestrians from dying, but at the same time people need to adapt to the reality that they're living in right now and do as much as they can to keep themselves from harm.

"Pedestrian responsibility" is pretty limited as a systemic solution. While Toronto, especially Torontonians who are on places like reddit, might be an exception, general culture in North America tends to put blame on pedestrians as it is even when they have acted entirely legally, and drivers acted entirely illegally, in collisions. Certainly it's good to be aware but I suspect most people are already. Aside from better infrastructure the only thing that will improve this is a) dramatic modal shift to transit so that incompetent drivers are simply not driving and b) an end to entitlement culture among drivers.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I disagree. Why take away pedestrian responsibility when we should be asking them to take MORE responsibilty for their own safety especially when its so damn easy to do? I would bet that probably 90%+ pedestrian/vehicle accidents wouldn't happen if pedestrians simply paid more attention when they were crossing a road.

You sound like me from about ten years ago. I too used to victim blame, thinking in this case, you’re entering the hostile road space, treat it like you would crossing train tracks or any other dangerous place where you’re not supposed to be for any length of time. But I smartened up, and realized that people own the city, not cars. The city should be designed for pedestrians. The priority should be pedestrians, transit, cyclists and then cars.

If we changed the laws so that drivers had absolute culpability for any pedestrian impacts, I imagine car drivers would slow the heck down and pay attention to the laws. Think of yourself as a driver, do you always stop on a red light when turning right or roll through, do you come to a full stop at four way stop signs, do you speed, do you wait at marked crossings until the pedestrians have entirely exited the road space before proceeding, or so you squeeze past them? These are the little traffic offences most drivers do to make it unsafe for pedestrians. I try to follow these rules every day I drive in the city because the pedestrians I’m not hitting are someone’s loved ones.

 

[crs1026]

^It’s paradoxical, not right-wrong.
So often these days we seem to demand binary win-lose solutions when paradoxes are what we are trying to solve, ie some merit and some blame on each side.

My advice to my loved ones when they are walking has always been, Keep your eyes open, it’s a jungle out there. As a simple matter of self-preservation, I’m all for people wearing reflectors, lights, whatever it takes to stay safe. Nothing wrong with pointing out that an ounce of prevention, use of common sense, etc.

But at the same time, anything that creates the appearance of deferring to motorists just encourages more aggressive and more risky driving behaviour. Putting impediments in the way of motorists may be necessary to keep them in check.

This doesn’t mean pedestrians should have the absolute right of way. There are limits, and if pedestrians don’t obey reasonable rules, either knowingly or through inattention, they may be culpable and they have created their own outcome.

I would not shape the issue based on what one reads on social media. There are pedestrian advocate wackos out the just as there are motorist advocate wackos. This problem will be solved by finding balance between the extremes, not by declaring one a winner and the other a loser.

- Paul

 

[Max Sterling]

"Pedestrian responsibility" is pretty limited as a systemic solution. While Toronto, especially Torontonians who are on places like reddit, might be an exception, general culture in North America tends to put blame on pedestrians as it is even when they have acted entirely legally, and drivers acted entirely illegally, in collisions. Certainly it's good to be aware but I suspect most people are already.

I'm not blaming pedestrians at all. I'm saying if people acknowledge that there are many bad drivers on the road, then why aren't pedestrians ADAPTING to that reality rather than demanding change that will be slow in coming if ever? Again I ask how can pedestrians say 'there are so many bad drivers out there' and then in the next breath say 'BUT even knowing that there are many bad drivers out there, I'm still going to trust them with my life rather than take it upon myself to adapt my approach to crossing streets to lower my chances of getting hit by a vehicle'.

That simply makes no sense to me. We can always push for more change, but in the mean time you'd have to be dumb as bricks to acknowledge a danger exists and still not change your own behavior to protect yourself as best you can against that danger, especially when its so easy to do.

Aside from better infrastructure the only thing that will improve this is a) dramatic modal shift to transit so that incompetent drivers are simply not driving and b) an end to entitlement culture among drivers.

I would say the biggest problem isn't the lack of transit, but rather extremely poor city design. Having more transit isn't the solution that people make it out to be, but instead designing communities that make transit and cars less necessary should be among the first steps in reducing traffic and making cities more people friendly. Right now we have too much sprawl and we continue to add to that sprawl instead of increasing density and building communities that are mostly self-contained and by that I mean having most of the services that we use on a daily basis be located within or very near to communities so that you don't have to drive or take transit or if you do then it will be a short trip.

What I'm thinking of is more developments like with what's happening in Markham along Enterprise Blvd with that new development where you have restaurants, banks, supermarkets etc. all within walking or short drive distance so that you don't have to go very far to go out for a bite to eat or to do some grocery shopping. If we could have more communities like that all over the GTA then driving trips could go down and transit would be less necessary. I think that's a much better long term solution than more transit that many people in the suburbs probably won't use much outside of work hours.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm not blaming pedestrians at all. I'm saying if people acknowledge that there are many bad drivers on the road, then why aren't pedestrians ADAPTING to that reality

They are! Many people for example have stopped cycling in Toronto because they deem it unsafe. Many seniors stay indoors because they’re afraid to cross the road. Watch people crossing at pedestrian crossings, and you see them proceeding with utmost caution, expecting cars to race through. Pedestrians in this city know full well that they’re being essentially hunted by metal cages. I would argue that outside of smartphone distraction pedestrian behaviour hasn’t really changed, we‘ve always rushed places, stepped out without looking, etc. But what has changed is the IDGAF attitude of drivers, as demonstrated by the growing numbers of hit and runs.

 

[Max Sterling]

You sound like me from about ten years ago. I too used to victim blame, thinking in this case, you’re entering the hostile road space, treat it like you would crossing train tracks or any other dangerous place where you’re not supposed to be for any length of time. But I smartened up, and realized that people own the city, not cars. The city should be designed for pedestrians. The priority should be pedestrians, transit, cyclists and then cars.

Again this IS NOT victim blaming, its about survival. When I'm in the Toronto subreddit and there's a discussion about a pedestrian injury or fatality, I always find it laughable that many people say 'drivers need to be better' without saying 'pedestrians also need to take more care in protecting themselves'. And they often bring up stats that say drivers are found at fault in most pedestrian/vehicle incidents.

My thought to that has always be WHO CARES if pedestrians are 'right' or 'not at fault' more often when they suffer life altering injuries or are even killed? Do you want your tombstone to say 'Here lies John who was killed by a car, but he had the right of way and that's what matters most'? Or do you think that being more alert and taking more precautions so that your chances of getting struck by a vehicle is extremely low matters more? I don't know about you, but I think the latter is MUCH MORE important.

To put it another way, lets say you were going on vacation in Brazil where you know there's alot of crime and violence. Is your response going to be to behave the same as you would in Toronto where its relatively low crime and violence or would the sensible and more logical thing to do is to alter your behavior and be more alert and aware of your surroundings and of your belongs to try and minimize your chances of becoming a victim of crime? Well if you were dumb and/or stubborn then you wouldn't change your habits at all, but if you were smart then obviously you would adapt to that more dangerous enviroment and be more careful until you returned to Toronto where you can be more at ease again.

Doesn't that make sense? If so then why can't we apply to this same idea to crossing roads? We want safer streets and we should fight to make those streets safer for pedestrians and cyclists, BUT in the meantime would it be too much to ask to simply turn your head to the left and right a few more times before crossing the road? I mean if you can't even do that, then perhaps you just don't value your own life as much as others value theirs who bother to take such simple measures to minimize their chances of becoming a victim.

For myself I value my life very, very, very much which is why I treat every driver on the road as a possible bad driver that I should be looking out for. By assuming every driver is bad, I adapt accordingly and always err on the side of caution rather than trust that a driver isn't going to hit me. Perhaps you could say I'm influenced by my past where as a child I was struck by a car while riding my bike. It was mostly my fault since I popped out of a laneway without looking and I'm not sure the driver could've done anything differently. Either way once was enough and I've learned my lesson for life.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Again this IS NOT victim blaming, its about survival... I always find it laughable

That’s where I stopped reading whatever you wrote. This is not laughable. You’re talking nonsense, of which I have no time for. Ignore function on.

 

[Max Sterling]

They are! Many people for example have stopped cycling in Toronto because they deem it unsafe. Many seniors stay indoors because they’re afraid to cross the road.

I would say that's often a poor design issue as much as it is a bad driver issue. Downtown can certainly improve its bicycle infrastructure by alot in making it safer for cyclists, but at the same time our politicians are UTTERLY STUPID in how they believe bike infrastructure can be built. I get that downtown pedestrians and cyclists need to be separate to not get in each other's way, BUT what I don't understand is why this is the case outside of downtown?

I've lived in various suburbs in the GTA most my life and outside of the core, the sidewalks of our city have almost always been empty, wasted spaces. You don't even have to go all that far outside of downtown to see literally thousands of kilometers of sidewalk that are empty 99% of the time because no one likes to walk in this city. You could stand on most streets in the city and especially in the suburbs for the entire day and you would be lucky to count even a couple of dozen people using those sidewalks in a day even in perfect summer weather.

The point is I've never understood why the city wouldn't simply convert our sidewalks into dual use sidewalk/bike lanes to get more use out of all that wasted infrastructure. It would be quick, relatively cheap and completely separated from vehicle traffic making it safer for everyone. What's not to like if you want to build alot of bike infrastructure in a relative short period of time? In fact I'd rather they do that than waste so much time and resources trying to build more costly transit that will take many years to finish assuming that anyone can even agree to a plan and carry through with it to begin with.

Watch people crossing at pedestrian crossings, and you see them proceeding with utmost caution, expecting cars to race through. Pedestrians in this city know full well that they’re being essentially hunted by metal cages.

I don't know where you live, but every single day I'd say at least 50-60% of pedestrians I see don't ever look left and right before and during when they cross because they assume because they have the right of way then that's all that matters. I'm actually surprised on those occasions when I see a pedestrian looking my way as they're crossing.

 

[W. K. Lis]

 

[Divas S.]

look max, I can tell your passionate about your position, I for one don't even 100% understand it but at least you're passionate. Anyways, where accidents happen most, (suburban arterial intersections) and almost all pedestrians who use those intersections are very aware of their surroundings as it's not at all uncommon to need to literally lunge your way out of being run over. I, a young person can lunge my way out of being a victim of vehicular homicide but there are plenty of people who can't.

There's only so much you can do before somebody in an SUV decides it's more important to look at their phone than look for oncoming traffic. I find it weird that you feel like pedestrians aren't doing enough to keep themselves safe when drivers go through red lights like it's nothing and do stuff like this: link

^^ the person got hit from behind and didn't it coming at all


I see that you complain about people's opinions on r/toronto but if you want to see see how inept people in this city are at driving then look at r/torontodriving

 

[Northern Light]

I've lived in various suburbs in the GTA most my life and outside of the core, the sidewalks of our city have almost always been empty, wasted spaces. You don't even have to go all that far outside of downtown to see literally thousands of kilometers of sidewalk that are empty 99% of the time because no one likes to walk in this city. You could stand on most streets in the city and especially in the suburbs for the entire day and you would be lucky to count even a couple of dozen people using those sidewalks in a day even in perfect summer weather.

May I suggest that your observation, while accurate in many suburban areas, makes a point you seem to have overlooked.

Why are those sidewalks empty?

I don't think its because people don't like to walk.

I think you'll find its because subdivisions turn their back on the main road with a fence/sound barrier creating an unpleasant no-mans land; that plazas are set back from the road and what meets the street is either parking or the ass-end of the plaza (garbage bins, back doors etc).

I think you'll find that its because the sidewalk is along a six-lane road in many cases which is terribly noisy and polluting and with cars driving by at speeds that feel unsafe to walk beside and which will splash you 12ft back of the road if there's a puddle.

I think you'll find its because the place they wish to walk to; a coffee shop, a supermarket, a cinema etc. is often several km away.............etc etc.

The answer to empty sidewalks along 14th avenue in York Region, or along Taunton in Whitby is not to add bicycles to the sidewalk, further discouraging pedestrians.

Its to fix the terrible mess that was made with highly inappropriate development and over-sized roads and low densities in order to make those sidewalks desirable to use.

Let's be clear, that can be done, and already has; in sections of various suburbs there are busy sidewalks, either because heritage areas were preserved (old Oakville, Pt. Credit, etc.) or because the area has re-urbanized (sections of Yonge, Hurontario etc.)

What we need is a whole lot more of that, and not meek acceptance of the failures of the past, resulting in compounding the error.

I should further add, I'm an out-of-shape, middle-aged man, but if get on a bike, it goes 30km/ph on level ground w/o me trying overly hard, and a whole lot faster down hill. I don't think that's a remotely safe speed to share w/pedestrians on a sidewalk.

 

[tiffer24]

A male pedestrian has been critically injured after being hit by a vehicle near Corso Italia on Saturday evening. It happened in the area of Lauder Avenue and St. Clair Avenue West, east of Dufferin Street, just after 11 p.m.

Toronto police said the man reportedly went through the front windshield. When officers arrived, the victim was unresponsive.

He has been rushed to a trauma centre in life-threatening condition.

https://www.cp24.com/news/man-in-li...-vehicle-near-dufferin-and-st-clair-1.4763613

 

[Max Sterling]

look max, I can tell your passionate about your position, I for one don't even 100% understand it but at least you're passionate. Anyways, where accidents happen most, (suburban arterial intersections) and almost all pedestrians who use those intersections are very aware of their surroundings as it's not at all uncommon to need to literally lunge your way out of being run over. I, a young person can lunge my way out of being a victim of vehicular homicide but there are plenty of people who can't.

If people need to lunge out of the way of vehicles more than once in a blue moon while crossing a road, then most likely they're not paying attention to their surroundings enough and/or aren't properly judging traffic before crossing. I walk pretty often and at times I do cross roads abit faster just to avoid possible trouble, but I can't remember the last time I had to jump out of the way of a car because it was about to hit me.

This is probably because I'm always looking at my surroundings and planning how to cross a road safely before I actually go and do it. Hence I wait until there's a safe opening or I can make eye contact with drivers and make sure they know I'm there before I start crossing and I never stop looking everywhere until I've safely crossed to the other side. In short I try to be as aware of my surroundings as possible and care more about getting to my destination safely than being 'in the right'.

There's only so much you can do before somebody in an SUV decides it's more important to look at their phone than look for oncoming traffic. I find it weird that you feel like pedestrians aren't doing enough to keep themselves safe when drivers go through red lights like it's nothing and do stuff like this: link

I could say the same with too many pedestrians where they're too busy looking at their phones, on a phone call or listening to their music far too often rather than paying attention to their surroundings. These kinds of behaviors aren't exclusive to just drivers and in all likelihood the same pedestrians who walk distracted are probably drivers who drive distracted.

So NO I DO NOT think many pedestrians are doing enough to protect themselves. I look at it this way. Pedestrians have the ability to survey the entire area around them before deciding to cross a road while drivers are mostly concentrated on the road and the space around their vehicles. Pedestrians can choose where to cross and they have all the time in the world to do so, so why not use that advantage and take their time? Unless a car runs onto the sidewalk like it did a few weeks back when a couple of students were killed, people mostly aren't going to be killed while standing on a sidewalk.

The bottom line is pedestrians have the best vision of the area surrounding them and have the time to pick the best spot to cross a road. If people were more aware and took their time crossing roads, the vast majority of pedestrian/vehicle injures and deaths wouldn't happen.

I see that you complain about people's opinions on r/toronto but if you want to see see how inept people in this city are at driving then look at r/torontodriving

And that is my point that I've been raising all along! You KNOW there are many bad drivers out there. Everyone knows that, so why aren't people paying more attention to avoid them?! This isn't an unknown threat that no one knows about. This is something that everyone knows and if you know that threat exists, then why aren't you adapting to that reality and being more careful to lower your chances of being hit by a car?

We all want safer streets where no one gets killed, but while fighting to make streets safer for everyone, in the meantime you're living in a reality where that isn't the case and people NEED to accept that and adapt to protect themselves. That's the most sensible thing to do.

 

[Max Sterling]

May I suggest that your observation, while accurate in many suburban areas, makes a point you seem to have overlooked.

Why are those sidewalks empty?

I don't think its because people don't like to walk.

I think you'll find its because subdivisions turn their back on the main road with a fence/sound barrier creating an unpleasant no-mans land; that plazas are set back from the road and what meets the street is either parking or the ass-end of the plaza (garbage bins, back doors etc).

Perhaps I should amend my statement in that not everyone dislikes walking and I agree with most of the reasons you listed as to why people don't walk in the suburbs. That's why I did say that people need to plan communities better so that there's more density and more stores and services located close together so that people can easily walk, bike or drive/take transit a short distance to them. The new development along Enterprise Blvd in Markham seems to be like that and I wish more communities would be built like that where they're mostly self-contained and people friendly.

I should further add, I'm an out-of-shape, middle-aged man, but if get on a bike, it goes 30km/ph on level ground w/o me trying overly hard, and a whole lot faster down hill. I don't think that's a remotely safe speed to share w/pedestrians on a sidewalk.

I disagree. For the downtown area, obviously that isn't going to work with the amount of daily pedestrian traffic on those sidewalks, but in the suburbs there's barely any foot traffic even in perfect summer weather. Even in areas where there's good density and a decent amount of stores, restaurants etc. that people could walk to, those sidewalks are still empty the vast majority of time. This is the infrastructure that I'm talking about that the city should make into dual use pathways. The parts of the city that are well established and where the best and easiest choice would be to make sidewalks dual use rather than completely redoing streets which would take more time and money.

There really isn't a good reason to let all that unused sidewalk infrastructure go to complete waste by not making it dual pedestrian/bike usable. The argument that once in a blue moon you might have a pedestrian/bike collusion shouldn't be the reason to not make those sidewalks dual use when 99% you won't encounter pedestrians on those sidewalks to begin with. If people and cyclists in a ton of GTA parks can share the road together, why can't they do it on sidewalks? Where possible widen the roadway to make things safer and where you can't then just be more cautious.

I just look at all that new development in Markham all along Highway 7 for example where they completed those new bus lanes and redid all those sidewalks and created bike lanes and see it as a missed opportunity to do things right. If you're biking even with the new lanes its still dangerous to share the road with fast moving cars. On the otherhand you have many brand new kilometers of empty sidewalk just sitting there completely unused because no one walks there. They could've easily just widened the sidewalks, paved it with asphalt and made it dual use and now you have new bike infrastructure that is actually safe to use because its separated from vehicles.

And in most new developments I see its the same thing as well. Useless sidewalk infrastructure being built that will be empty 99% of the time instead of dual use pathways that is safe to use away from vehicle traffic. So many people complain about the lack of bike infrastructure and yet when given the chance to build it in a relatively cheap and quick way so that we can have a larger bike network we don't do it. I just don't understand why our politicians and city planners keep doing the same stupid things over and over again.