[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just like rolling stop at stop signs, running late yellow/early red is pretty much a norm nowadays, along with rushing right turns before the pedestrians. Don't forget charmers like rushing past a stopped streetcars (because the driver couldn't tell it is there, perhaps? )

AoD

 

[crs1026]

^Empathy is honourable - but - Accident prevention is about data and analysis and facts, not empathy.

If you want a good place to study human behaviour, stand outside the Royal York Subway at rush hour. Pedestrians do stupid things. Drivers do stupid things. Cyclists barrel through, as if yielding right of way is fake news. It's impossible to take sides. Everybody is equally stupid and self centered. There is a near miss every couple of minutes.

Our road system is not a grazing area where humans can wander wherever they want, whenever they want, no matter how much we empathise with them and no matter how squishable they may be compared to motor vehicles. There are places in our road system where drivers have the presumption that they have the right of way, so long as they stay within the rules. No one should fault them for exercising their right of way. Nor should anyone deprive them of their right of way..... our city would choke to a halt if we strangled auto traffic. There are other places where pedestrians have the right of way, and they should expect to be safe within that zone. Cyclists likewise.

It is as reasonable to challenge whether a pedestrian was observing the rules of the road, as it is to question whether a driver was doing the same. Just do it in a balanced and objective way.

- Paul

 

[tiffer24]

Can anyone tell me how many pedestrians have killed Toronto drivers on the streets of Toronto in the last ten years?

 

[crs1026]

Can anyone tell me how many pedestrians have killed Toronto drivers on the streets of Toronto in the last ten years?

I find that argument pretty close to trolling. Correlation is not causation

The extreme example that illustrates the point is, people struck while on the roadway of 400-series highways or the Gardiner/DVP. The design of those roads does not contemplate pedestrians being present, or drivers being able to stop for a pedestrian. All knowledgeable authorities agree that exiting a vehicle on those roads is unsafe. It is beyond the human factors envelope of automotive technology for an alert and sober driving, proceeding with due care, to identify and safely avoid a pedestrian in that situation. Panic stops and sudden swerves may be as lethal as hitting the pedestrian. That doesn't mean drivers are absolved from exercising care, but it means that due care may not guarantee zero fatalities.

Do we lower speed limits on those roads because we anticipate there may be a pedestrian on the roadway on occasion? At a huge economic cost to society in terms of vehicle throughput and trip time? We recognize that the odds are far in favour of the vehicle, and we accept that some such events will happen over time. We may never get to zero. That's probability and math.

Driving in the city is no different, except that the human factors envelope can be altered more easily. Still, there is more to engineering roads for everyone's benefit than chanting "cars are hard, people are soft".

- Paul

 

[tiffer24]

Drivers hold the balance of power on Toronto streets... if that still needs to be debated, maybe we will just have to settle for more deaths. We are already on track to beat last year's total pedestrian deaths.

https://www.cp24.com/news/fatal-traffic-collisions

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

On the streets people seem in a rush, borderline angry, ready to go off. I mean we're getting to the point we've had drivers shoot at other drivers because they cut them off or gave them the finger. Pedestrians blissfully read phones while crossing streets (I was told by a grade school teacher who saw me looking at a library book while crossing the street to never look at anything while crossing a road, but pay attention to my surroundings, that advice has stuck with me for decades) and don't look around. People jaywalk all over the place, wearing all black clothing. Some just cross streets on red lights, daring cars to hit them. Cyclists blow through pedestrians like bowling pins, some yell at pedestrians when they're "in their way". Drivers try to beat red lights because they seem to get one after another and don't care that someone is literally inches away from their car while crossing. It almost feels like a free for all. Everyone needs to calm down and go back to that quaint old custom of observing the "rules of the road". Pedestrians should be safe when crossing streets on their lights, cyclists shouldn't have to fear getting run off the road and car drivers would get where they're going if they and the others all behaved predictably. Slowing traffic down just gets the drivers more frazzled and likely to run red lights or make hasty turns which in turn further endangers the pedestrians and cyclists. How do we get back to more civil traffic behaviour? I don't know the answer, more education all around, more enforcement of traffic rules would help, better traffic management ... living in a major urban centre brings these challenges. I don't know that these problems exist in Woodstock or Belleville, but I'm sure the same behaviour is going on there too. Fewer people and less traffic just means that it's not as likely to end up in casualties. In the meantime, be careful out there.

 

[PinkLucy]

The anger is palpable. When I lived downtown, I didn't really notice it. Then I moved out of the city core, and now I notice every time I am back. People in my new neighbourhood complain about traffic, but drivers stop to let pedestrians cross or to let other drivers get out of a driveway. I see a definite difference. Everyone hates cyclists everywhere though.

 

[crs1026]

^My theory would be that we have to re-baseline everyone's expectations. Too many drivers' expectation at present is, congestion is beatable if you work at it. That means people weave, gun it when there is space, and generally get frustrated at any minor thing that causes them to hit the brakes, or (worse) stop for a yellow light when they could have made it through.

Congestion is a reality that is never going to disappear. Older drivers especially are accustomed to having been able to move more freely back when our roads were emptier. One can't blame people for viewing things from their experience base. I find I am constantly having to reset my expectations about how long a trip will take....even compared to two or three years ago. Drivers simply cannot expect to get out of the road system what they have gotten in the past.

We need some sort of "Resistance is Futile" message that brings this to the forefront and talks to this on its own merit. Vision Zero is a bit utopian and doesn't speak candidly enough about realities.

Bringing pedestrians and bikes into a discussion with motorists is actually unhelpful, because that positions the whole issue as "we drivers" against someone else. Even if pedestrians' complaints are valid, the self righteous tone and the "stand up to the man" stance just creates defensiveness and gives the target audience a reason to deflect the issue on others. Let drivers get their heads around what driving will look like from now on.

I do think we also need a message about some minimal expectations for pedestrians and cyclists. I stopped for a right turn on green light this morning, carefully yielding to a pedestrian who was just starting towards me from the far side of the intersection. He crossed one lane, stopped, pulled out his phone, started reading, and walked the rest of the way across at a slower pace as he texted. The thanks I get for being cautious.....just a sample of one, but these experiences do add up in peoples' minds. I may well lead-foot through the turn next time.

- Paul

 

[ADRM]

I do think we also need a message about some minimal expectations for pedestrians and cyclists. I stopped for a right turn on green light this morning, carefully yielding to a pedestrian who was just starting towards me from the far side of the intersection. He crossed one lane, stopped, pulled out his phone, started reading, and walked the rest of the way across at a slower pace as he texted. The thanks I get for being cautious.....just a sample of one, but these experiences do add up in peoples' minds. I may well lead-foot through the turn next time.

"People are too quick to blame drivers but also one time this pedestrian didn't move quickly enough so I had to wait an extra 1.26 seconds at a stop so maybe next time I'll just endanger his life next time."

That's quite the viewpoint coming from someone so keen to label anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint as a troll.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Right turn on green is going to be increasingly contested simply due to the rising amount of pedestrians in the core. It's time to rethink it.

AoD

 

[picard102]

"People are too quick to blame drivers but also one time this pedestrian didn't move quickly enough so I had to wait an extra 1.26 seconds at a stop so maybe next time I'll just endanger his life next time."

That's quite the viewpoint coming from someone so keen to label anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint as a troll.

Where was the pedestrians safety endangered?

 

[ADRM]

Where was the pedestrians safety endangered?

"I may well lead-foot through the turn next time."

 

[crs1026]

"People are too quick to blame drivers but also one time this pedestrian didn't move quickly enough so I had to wait an extra 1.26 seconds at a stop so maybe next time I'll just endanger his life next time."

That's quite the viewpoint coming from someone so keen to label anyone who disagrees with their viewpoint as a troll.

Apologies. Next time I will put my sarcasm in quotes. It may read better.

The point being - it wasn't 1.26 seconds. It was enough time delay that several cars could have turned right had the pedestrian made the effort to clear the intersection at walking speed. It does matter when you are needlessly holding people up.

- Paul

 

[ADRM]

Right turn on green is going to be increasingly contested simply due to the rising amount of pedestrians in the core. It's time to rethink it.

AoD

That would be huge; drivers gunning it through reds while turning right at intersections is probably the thing that leads to the highest number of close calls for me as a pedestrian.

 

[ADRM]

The point being - it wasn't 1.26 seconds. It was enough time delay that several cars could have turned right had the pedestrian made the effort to clear the intersection at walking speed. It does matter when you are needlessly holding people up.

Of **cking course it matters; this is putting literal seconds of convenience above the *life* of another human being. This is what is so utterly galling about the debate -- people so often equate minor inconveniences with literal life and death.