[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Drove out this morning to take some pictures of the area we're all fighting about.

One thing that's really apparent is that the area is a long way away from being developed from industrial to residential/business. This is a REALLY industrial area surround by even more industrial area. It's not like the railway lands being converted to CityPlace or lower Jarivs turning into Sugar Beach. This is REALLY industrial. I'm sure it will change over eventually like everything does, but removing the highway isn't going to have an immediate effect the way say removing it in the middle of the SouthCore would.

Hi Hawc,

Welcome to my (old) neigbourhood. Where do you live? And do you come down to my (old) neighbourhood often?

I ask, because with the notable exception of the cement compound on Cherry and the iconic Redpath sugar factory, this area is much more ripe for development than CityPlace ever was. If you had glanced to your right as you took the first ramp from DVP to the eastern Gardiner, you would have seen a Don bikepath that is jammed every decent weather weekend. To your west across the rail berm you would have seen a huge new park, a completely new neighbourhood that has grown in less than 10 years (albeit with a Pan Am boost), and the (newly) iconic Distillery District.

Your last picture, by the way, is where another new huge park, as well as housing, restaurants, and the Keating Channel recreation district, will go -- as soon as we get rid of the bloody Gardiner.

ETA: The reason the ramp to Carlaw is so long is that it is a remnant of the Scarborough Expressway start that used to go all the way to Leslie. While it has served its purpose, I think all of the Film District, South Riverdale, and Riverside would be very happy to get rid of it. MMM and her Beachers like it, of course, because it saves them a solid 3-5 mins on their way downtown in the morning.

 

[hawc]

OK you're crazy. To say that a road and public education and health care are both public goods is risible.

I'm crazy to suggest that roads are a public good???

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

No one posted this yet? All the info and renderings are here now.

http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/1999/11/updated_evaluation_for_the_gardiner_expressway_east__environmental_assessment

Looking at them, it's abundantly obvious that aesthetically REMOVE is the way to go. Nothing in the cost or travel times data sways me from that. Not when demolishing it is half the cost. This city needs to do something bold for a change and we're not even talking about removing the whole elevated mess - just the east part. Get it done already.

EDIT: Just to add a tweet from David Rider, while the grilling to staff is going on. I think this sums up everything wrong with the hybrid option in a nutshell:
Fair to say hybrid is about $460M more to save 3% of commuters 3 to 5 minutes per trip? Yes, say city officials.

 

[hawc]

Hi Hawc, welcome to my (old) neighbourhood. Where do you live? And do you come down to my (old) neighbourhood often?

I live in Regent Park and cycle down to your old neighbourhood often. I love the peace and quiet down there. I don't mind the industrial side of it, but like I said, I'm all for gentrification. I've seen what it's done in Regent Park.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Wait a sec... the hybrid option doesn't even have an on ramp from westbound Lakeshore east of the DVP? That's annoying, although if it really is only 3 minutes I suppose it doesn't matter. I am skeptical of that estimate though.

That stretch of Lakeshore (west of DVP) will not be pleasant in either case given the traffic volume.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

It looks like most of the cost for the hybrid option is long-term maintenance, given that the NPV estimates are not that different.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Exactly. From now on I'd like the City to take into account the *ONE HUNDRE YEAR* projected cost of any budget decisions. It's ridiculous. We're thinking of putting in this outdoor hockey rink. It's going to cost $200 million over 100 years.

We do. This is why we're building LRTs on Finch, Sheppard on Eglinton (their lower operating costs vs. busses).

 

[Tuscani01]

Wait a sec... the hybrid option doesn't even have an on ramp from westbound Lakeshore east of the DVP? That's annoying, although if it really is only 3 minutes I suppose it doesn't matter. I am skeptical of that estimate though.

That stretch of Lakeshore (west of DVP) will not be pleasant in either case given the traffic volume.

It's already not pleasant. The lineup to get onto the Gardiner from Lakeshore already backs up to Jarvis from cars using Lakeshore. Sometimes it takes up two full lanes of Lakeshore too, leaving only 1 free lane for through traffic, which sometimes gets blocked by vehicles waiting to make a left.

The hybrid option may actually cause more traffic issues than it is intended to solve, now that I think about it. Lakeshore is going to be a disaster.

 

[hawc]

City roads are a public good - limited access expressways, not so much.

Limited access expressways? It makes it sound like these are gold plated highways just for rich people. Limited access highways (yes you're correct that is the technical term) are still used by EVERYONE and are very much a public good. These are the main highways in, around and through Toronto for crying out loud. Short of someone who only cycles or pogo sticks everywhere, who hasn't been on The Gardiner or DVP at least one in the last few months. (Even if you don't use them all your good and services comes in on them. They're not floated magically down into Kensington Market by blimp.) I'm not going to waste any more time arguing that roads are a public good. If you guys can't at least agree on that, we've got no common ground whatsoever. At least admit that it's a public good that you want to discourage use of because you don't like cars. But don't try and that a highway that runs through Toronto isn't a public good to Torontonians.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I'm crazy to suggest that roads are a public good???

In the context you put them, yes. Not 'roads', one road. This road.

But even in the greater scheme of things, infrastructure is arguably a public good, but roads, per se, are not. It's splitting hairs, sure, but we're not arguing over funding cancer research vs. road building, we're arguing over replacing an aging elevated highway with one a couple of possible choices.

 

[wopchop]

Toronto Star: All or part of the eastern Gardiner should be removed, study says;

Torontonians will be presented with two options for the eastern Gardiner Expressway — removing the 2.4 kilometre elevated altogether and replacing it with an eight-lane boulevard, or a removal only of the elevated portion east of the Don River.
Simply maintaining the aging span is not presented as a serious option, suggest city studies released Wednesday compare and contrast the options in terms of cost, construction disruption, economic benefits, waterfront development and more.

The studies predicts that, if the Gardiner was kept as is, average morning rush hour commute times to Union Station in 2031 would be about five minutes longer than now.
The city predicts that, of four destinations in the city, the hybrid model would add another three minutes to that time from one of the starting points, Victoria Park Ave. and Kingston Rd. and no extra times from the other origin points.
Bringing down the entire eastern portion of the Gardiner would add five minutes to that trip and three minutes to other trips.

In terms of cost, the hybrid option would cost, long term, $919 million compared to $461 million for removal.
The hybrid option, the studies say, would maintain an expressway connection between the Gardiner and the Don Valley Parkway, has lower travel times for vehicles and goods, and less construction disruption.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

So, basically the east end gets screwed in either case.

I see that left turn from westbound "new" Lakeshore into the neighbourhood south of Keating channel being a problem. Thousands of housing units with only one or two roads in seems like a bad idea.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hrmph!

I believe that streetcar trips east of Leslie take too long to get downtown. While it would be a minor inconvenience for the small number of people affected, I proposed that streetcars make no stops within the borders of Riverdale so that the large number of people outside of the area can have a faster trip into downtown. After all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

What's the estimate for daily ridership on the Scarborough Subway Extension? The Scarborough RT has daily ridership of approx. 40,000. Perhaps we should just tear it down and re-route all buses to Kennedy station, because there isn't enough demand to justify a subway.)

I know you're being sarcastic about re-routing all busses to Kennedy, but that is actually a fesiable solution. Like 3 has an daily ridership of 40,000. Compare this to the Finch East bus, which has a daily ridership of 44,000. Obviously the ridership on the 6.4 km Line 3 replacement bus line would be more concentrated then on the Finch East bus, but it should work.

Obviously this wouldn't be the best solution, since operational costs would be astronomically high. In fact, the high operations cost is the whole reason why we're replacing the Finch West bus with the cheaper to operate LRT.

 

[LNahid2000]

Limited access expressways? It makes it sound like these are gold plated highways just for rich people. Limited access highways (yes you're correct that is the technical term) are still used by EVERYONE and are very much a public good. These are the main highways in, around and through Toronto for crying out loud. Short of someone who only cycles or pogo sticks everywhere, who hasn't been on The Gardiner or DVP at least one in the last few months. (Even if you don't use them all your good and services comes in on them. They're not floated magically down into Kensington Market by blimp.) I'm not going to waste any more time arguing that roads are a public good. If you guys can't at least agree on that, we've got no common ground whatsoever. At least admit that it's a public good that you want to discourage use of because you don't like cars. But don't try and that a highway that runs through Toronto isn't a public good to Torontonians.

I use the DVP/Gardiner once a year during Ride for Heart, and have to pay for the privilege to do so. I'm fine with tolls for everyone else even if it results in higher good/service prices for me. Though, the tolls may not result in increased prices if the monetary value of the time savings from having less cars on the Gardiner is greater than the price of the toll.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No one posted this yet? All the info and renderings are here now.

http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/1999/11/updated_evaluation_for_the_gardiner_expressway_east__environmental_assessment

Looking at them, it's abundantly obvious that aesthetically REMOVE is the way to go. Nothing in the cost or travel times data sways me from that. Not when demolishing it is half the cost. This city needs to do something bold for a change and we're not even talking about removing the whole elevated mess - just the east part. Get it done already.

EDIT: Just to add a tweet from David Rider, while the grilling to staff is going on. I think this sums up everything wrong with the hybrid option in a nutshell:
Fair to say hybrid is about $460M more to save 3% of commuters 3 to 5 minutes per trip? Yes, say city officials.

Yikes. It's only 3 to 5 minutes over the base case, 2 to 5 minutes over the hybrid. Remove is the way to go.