[Northern Light]

We can all agree that there’s a few different types to the 401. There’s the Toronto proper 401, the West GTA 401, the East GTA 401, and the rest of the provincial highway 401. I don’t understand why the politicians don’t realize that not everyones destination is Toronto and some people need to use the highways as a thruway. Making this GTA west highway helps a lot. Even if it is a bit more up north, you could have it go from KW/Guelph or even the 401/407 interchange, to Highway 7/115 in Peterborough and you’ll see how much of a relief It takes off of the 401/QEW & Gardner/403. We have a combined population of every single type of driver all with different destinations, and driving different types of vehicles whether it takes up minimal space or roughly 2 meters like a truck, all live on the 401 even as we speak. All this talk shouldn’t happen just for one decision to be made and if im being honest, another new highway or two is a MUST for the GTA whether we like it or not. Transit is not an option for a driver who wants to go from let’s say cobourg to Detroit or from Barrie to Kingston for example, we have to consider these people as well. There’s a reason why a place like New York or LA has so many different highways and it’s all for different intentions and purposes. You could leave anytime during the day and take so many different options to avoid rush hour traffic. Toronto needs to have something like this

Toronto not only doesn't need something like this, NYC for sure and maybe L.A. will be removing some of this, as they should.

You're not recognizing a few things.

1) No highway of the type being described is affordable or sustainable without sprawl.

You cannot build a six-lane (or more) highway without drawing in the development to support it.

The new highway does not relieve traffic.

If you drove on those highways in L.A. you'd recognize the problem.

Each time the capacity was enhanced, or a new/extended highway built, more cars arrived to use it, resulting in no net savings in travel time.

That's how it always works.

2)Very few people should be driving 1/2 way across the province routinely. There's no sense to that. You should not living Belleville and work in Brampton. That's illogical and environmentally atrocious.

There needs to be a penalty that makes frivolous over-use of highways expensive enough that no one would dream of doing that.

3) If someone has a once, twice or three times per year trip they have to make from Belleville to Brampton; An extra $6 in tolls each way is not material to their cost. But if it reduces traffic by forcing regulars onto trains, it means you can make the long trip faster and w/less hassle than would otherwise be the case.

More highways equals more sprawl.

More sprawl equals higher taxes, and a more damaged environment.

The priorities of more people, including a healthy environment out rank the convenience of the few or the one.

 

[drum118]

Toronto not only doesn't need something like this, NYC for sure and maybe L.A. will be removing some of this, as they should.

You're not recognizing a few things.

1) No highway of the type being described is affordable or sustainable without sprawl.

You cannot build a six-lane (or more) highway without drawing in the development to support it.

The new highway does not relieve traffic.

If you drove on those highways in L.A. you'd recognize the problem.

Each time the capacity was enhanced, or a new/extended highway built, more cars arrived to use it, resulting in no net savings in travel time.

That's how it always works.

2)Very few people should be driving 1/2 way across the province routinely. There's no sense to that. You should not living Belleville and work in Brampton. That's illogical and environmentally atrocious.

There needs to be a penalty that makes frivolous over-use of highways expensive enough that no one would dream of doing that.

3) If someone has a once, twice or three times per year trip they have to make from Belleville to Brampton; An extra $6 in tolls each way is not material to their cost. But if it reduces traffic by forcing regulars onto trains, it means you can make the long trip faster and w/less hassle than would otherwise be the case.

More highways equals more sprawl.

More sprawl equals higher taxes, and a more damaged environment.

The priorities of more people, including a healthy environment out rank the convenience of the few or the one.

Building more highways adds to urban sprawl.

If it goes through the Green Belt, what good is the Green Belt for??? This also applies to GO Transit Rail system.

The 401 was built as a bypass around Toronto since many drivers have no need to go to Toronto in the first place. Today, its almost the centre of Toronto and any new bypass will speed up the expansion of Toronto.

Because of high cost to own or rent in Toronto, many people are forced to move to other areas that they can afford to live. In some cases, business has die where they live and force to go to X to work.

More roads or lanes add to an unfriendly environment that effect everyone, but more so who live within 3 miles of those roads. Its also unhealthy as it put way more stress on drivers, more so who have to deal with it on a daily basic.

I used to do it daily for business and it eat me up that I stop doing that line of work. Even for pleasure, it has an effect on me and one reason I very rarely use the Gardiner. I try staying away from the 401 at various times of the day as it becomes too stress full.

You will not see much change of drivers using the train if tolls were used on the 401, as they still need to get to/from the train station to/from where they are going to in the first place. It may change if we had high speed rail service in the 200-400 km/hr range, but not at today speeds.

There are various locations where extra lanes will speed the flow of traffic, but over times it will be back to where it was before the expansion.

If one drives various roads at night, very little different than day time.

The only road being built these days should be for trucks to get the good to where they have to go fast and meet the just in time demand.

This route is only good for trucks and then how much would it help them in the first place compare to today travel route???

 

[kali]

We 'penalize' people for taking the GO train to work by charging them a fare; likewise any local public transit.

Why should drivers be exempt?

Transit riders subsidize drivers.

That's illogical.

WFH is fine; but not a per-requisite to logical demand management and moving people more efficiently.

You can't just toll the 401 without giving people a viable alternative to driving. Doing so will breed resentment and poison the well for future changes to the transportation mix. GO commuters aren't being penalized - they're free to drive downtown. But because the GO is a viable alternative, they're able to leave their cars at home (okay, at the station, but you get my point).

My point about WFH is that we need to get creative in other areas to address congestion if we're going to be so slow in building infrastructure.

I get the point about induced demand - and I would suggest restricting zoning around the new highway to prevent sprawl.

 

[Northern Light]

You can't just toll the 401 without giving people a viable alternative to driving. Doing so will breed resentment and poison the well for future changes to the transportation mix. GO commuters aren't being penalized - they're free to drive downtown. But because the GO is a viable alternative, they're able to leave their cars at home (okay, at the station, but you get my point).

GO Commuters are paying a fare which is the same as paying a toll. The exact same. A fare from Oshawa to Union is $10.31 each way or $20.60 per day. at 38 fares before GO Caps you, you're look at $367 per month or $4,404 per year.

***
Suggesting they can all drive downtown is absurd; there is neither sufficient capacity on our highways to allow that (how's a six-hour commute, each way, strike you?), nor is their sufficient parking supply downtown. As it is parking downtown can run $30 per day. If you more than doubled demand, start at $50. You're also assuming that EVERY GO commuter owns a car and drives (doubtless a clear majority do, but not all)

I get the point about induced demand - and I would suggest restricting zoning around the new highway to prevent sprawl.

Won't work, never has, been tried before. Every attempt at highways like this leads to the same thing the world over.

 

[innsertnamehere]

GO does not cost $800 a month from Oshawa!? Monthly with Presto it's $367.85.

a trip on the 407 provincially owned portion, which is an example of how the province may toll the GTA West, for a similar distance (45km), would cost you about $13.34 each way. Or $533.60 a month, presuming 40 trips! Plus you would have gas costs, which even with an economical sedan like a Honda Civic, would end up around another $150 on top of that. Plus vehicle maintenance, depreciation, etc...

You want to see "good" highway construction, take a trip to the Netherlands. Lots of "good" highways there that support very well planned communities with strong transit modal shares.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Northern Light]

GO does not cost $800 a month from Oshawa!? Monthly with Presto it's $367.85.

a trip on the 407 provincially owned portion, which is an example of how the province may toll the GTA West, for a similar distance (45km), would cost you about $13.34 each way. Or $533.60 a month, presuming 40 trips! Plus you would have gas costs, which even with an economical sedan like a Honda Civic, would end up around another $150 on top of that. Plus vehicle maintenance, depreciation, etc...

You want to see "good" highway construction, take a trip to the Netherlands. Lots of "good" highways there that support very well planned communities with strong transit modal shares.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

My bad, corrected.

 

[kali]

GO Commuters are paying a fare which is the same as paying a toll. The exact same. A fare from Oshawa to Union is $10.31 each way or $20.60 per day. at 38 fares before GO Caps you, you're look at $367 per month or $4,404 per year.

***
Suggesting they can all drive downtown is absurd; there is neither sufficient capacity on our highways to allow that (how's a six-hour commute, each way, strike you?), nor is their sufficient parking supply downtown. As it is parking downtown can run $30 per day. If you more than doubled demand, start at $50. You're also assuming that EVERY GO commuter owns a car and drives (doubtless a clear majority do, but not all)

No, I'm trying to say that there's an attractive alternative to driving downtown - the GO. But if we toll the highways to areas with no GO rail service (most of the GTA, let's face it), there won't be some massive shift to transit. And it makes no sense to me tolling highways when there's no viable alternative for most of those drivers. Not sure we're going to find any agreement on this so I suggest we move on.

Won't work, never has, been tried before. Every attempt at highways like this leads to the same thing the world over.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as we know, we didn't implement highways the way I suggested above. I'm not sure if you're responding to the specifics of the idea I proposed: toll the highway to limit SOVs and restrict zoning within a half hour drive (or whatever other reasonable distance) of that highway.

 

[kamira51]

I myself live in Caledon East, I work generally in the gta and require a truck to travel. It takes me 35-45 to travel to the 407/427 at finch in brampton. Now you may ask

"Why don't you take the 410?" The 410 is a crapshoot, it's either moving or it's not.

So I take goreway to the 407 and take it to the 401 down to London, I'm forced to drive through brampton which is hell because of slow pokes and constant traffic lights really pisses me off.

This highway proposal is interesting because it would allow me to totally skip brampton, that's fantastic because it would allow me to go either 427 going south/east or west to the 401/407 exchange and not need to use the 410 or 407.

But like others have said regarding urban sprawl/environmental concerns I recognize them too. I dislike urban sprawl and I want all the land around the highway protected till Bolton as bolton has a large industrial presence and would help get trucks off highway 50.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Jasmine18]

If this is built as a rural highway with no development it would be okay

However this would turn caledon into Brampton lol

 

[kamira51]

If this is built as a rural highway with no development it would be okay

However this would turn caledon into Brampton lol

I absolutely agree, It should be built as a rural highway.

 

[Northern Light]

No, I'm trying to say that there's an attractive alternative to driving downtown - the GO. But if we toll the highways to areas with no GO rail service (most of the GTA, let's face it), there won't be some massive shift to transit. And it makes no sense to me tolling highways when there's no viable alternative for most of those drivers. Not sure we're going to find any agreement on this so I suggest we move on.

I agree we can move on; but again I'm saying that it makes no sense to me not to charge for use of a highway. It doesn't make sense to me that you get to pollute, cause adverse health effects to others, and consume copious amounts of public resources for free. If you want good transit from say Markham to Mississauga; the answer to that is to toll any relevant road; then the screams will be loud enough to use those funds to build a GO rail line along the 407/York Sub corridor which will run from Markham to the existing Kitchener GO corridor, and then extend on via the Missing Link to the Milton Corridor.

That logic applies to any other trip one could think of; of course some trips will remain viable by car only; but with much lighter volumes of highway traffic such people will benefit from shorter, less stressful trips; they also have the choice of moving.
That infrastructure can't be built without a source of funds.

If you don't want tolls to pay for it, you need another source of revenue; and if the meantime highway travel is free, then transit should be free; and the tax hike in sales/corporate/income tax will be substantially larger.

I would argue the fairest way, and most rational way to fund the infra is through tolls (and fares) with everyone paying for mobility. If we need a public subsidy to keep the price somewhat sane, so be it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as we know, we didn't implement highways the way I suggested above. I'm not sure if you're responding to the specifics of the idea I proposed: toll the highway to limit SOVs and restrict zoning within a half hour drive (or whatever other reasonable distance) of that highway.

I did respond by suggesting that it wouldn't work. I simply don't believe politicians will build/zone that way; and if they did (unlikely) it wouldn't hold; the same with restricting use.

 

[kali]

I did response by suggesting that it wouldn't work. I simply don't believe politicians will build/zone that way; and if they did (unlikely) it wouldn't hold; the same with restricting use.

Agreed. I don't believe for a second that the province would go against developers by restricting zoning around a new GTA highway. I guess I was presenting a wishful thinking best case scenario.

 

[urbannorth]

Agreed. I don't believe for a second that the province would go against developers by restricting zoning around a new GTA highway. I guess I was presenting a wishful thinking best case scenario.

Another way of looking at it is that gov'ts would bound to allow re-zoning in order to recover the cost of construction and create more economic activity.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

If you want tolls on the highway, the two acceptable places for the funds to go are highway maintenance, and GO Transit. The toll method would probably be congestion pricing to try to ensure the highways don't hit stop and go traffic speeds. You'd need to start slow and ratchet your way up, which also gives time to expand GO service.

Caledon's plan near the 413 is urban sprawl, building it will mean lots of low density sprawl.

 

[jje1000]

This project needs to die, forever.

The land for it needs to be sold off and/or turned into a provincial park!

The GTA needs another Highway like a hole it needs more pollution, poverty and homelessness.

The first key to making things better is to stop making them worse!

IMO, the mistake is funding more highways in lieu of greenfield public transit corridors, which is an choice that every North American city has failed on. The Brampton proposal is better as it leaves room for transit expansion, but is ultimately still car-oriented.

We should have honestly gone for something like Copenhagen's 1947 Finger Plan, which centered suburbs around commuter rail- a possibility even into the 80s- and which is far better than trying to fix bad planning and threading transit through vast swaths of built-up, low-yield areas. Thankfully we have the GO network (imagine trying to build up a commuter rail system today!), but many of their surrounding neighborhoods are still car-oriented, and TOD can only go so far- worse, sprawl is still king in the farther townships where denser development could be taking place.

Imagine...