[waterloowarrior]

the northern routes to Guelph were screened out earlier in the process. here are the slides from the June 2010 public consultation
http://www.gta-west.com/pdf/6720GTAWestPIC4Panels-June14-2010.pdf

 

[Dan416]

Even if the highway was planned to go from hiwghay 400 to Guelph, there would have to be a link down to 401 somewhere near Milton. I this this as a way of splitting the project in 2 (or 3). Phase 1 is the new highway from highway 400 to the 407/401 interchange. Phase 2 is to built a highway from the North end of Guelph, north of Acton and Georgetown, to connect with this highway. The 401 widening could be done in phases depending on whether (or when) this new highway gets built.

adding to CC's map from above:

https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid...ll=43.667872,-79.979095&spn=0.487744,1.347198

Nice map! I like seeing things visually it makes them easier to understand what someone is talking about.

Although I don't see this getting done for tens of years.

I renamed my map as Highway 413 as well.

 

[gweed123]

the northern routes to Guelph were screened out earlier in the process. here are the slides from the June 2010 public consultation
http://www.gta-west.com/pdf/6720GTAWestPIC4Panels-June14-2010.pdf

It seems that based on the report the only real factor why it was screened out was the environmental impact. It had equal economic benefits, and was one of the best choices in terms of serving the transportation demands.

Going through the Escarpment, yes I can see how it can be a problem. But putting a transportation corridor through the Greenbelt? I know when the Greenbelt Act was enacted, a lot of farmers whose land was inside the Greenbelt were pretty pissed, because it basically made their land worthless because it couldn't be sold off for development. The only thing they could sell it for was for other farming activities. A lot of farmers had their retirement plans go up in smoke when that plan was passed.

Sure, it would be better to have a transit corridor through the Greenbelt instead, but that's not very likely to happen. An expressway isn't the best option, but I'd take an expressway through Greenbelt lands than somebody trying to push through a rural residential subdivision.

I know this makes me sound like I'm anti-environmental, but I'm really not. I just don't get this whole notion of "oh it's greenbelt lands, therefore we have to take a BANANA approach". For a lot of the Greenbelt lands, there's very little to differentiate one side of the road which is protected lands from the other side of the road that isn't. It's a 100m wide ROW, not a massive subdivision that we're talking about here.

The Escarpment is a different story though, but I'm sure there can be some ways in which the impact can be minimized.

But I don't think that is project should be ruled out solely for environmental reasons, especially when the economic and transportation benefits are either at par or better than the other options.

I renamed my map as Highway 413 as well.

Highway 413 definitely makes sense, and it goes with the naming convention of E-W highways having odd numbers. Also, Highway 13 doesn't exist, neither does 14 for that matter, so if there is a need for a new N-S 400-series highway, that would work too.

Come to think of it, it may make sense to number the Hanlon Highway 414 if they don't manage to do a name swap with the existing Highway 406.

 

[dunkalunk]

Building a bypass of a bypass is a great idea! I know that Phoenix and Houston are doing this, and they sure are cities to follow.

(I hope this was satire, because I have a case of the roffles)

In all seriousness though, upgrading the Hanlon and increasing the 401 to 10 lanes from Milton to Cambridge (Higwhay 24) should be more than sufficient for the area. I'd much rather the monies be spent on buying upgrading and putting service on the parallel rail corridor between Guelph and Brampton.

 

[BurlOak]

It seems that based on the report the only real factor why it was screened out was the environmental impact. It had equal economic benefits, and was one of the best choices in terms of serving the transportation demands.

Going through the Escarpment, yes I can see how it can be a problem. But putting a transportation corridor through the Greenbelt? I know when the Greenbelt Act was enacted, a lot of farmers whose land was inside the Greenbelt were pretty pissed, because it basically made their land worthless because it couldn't be sold off for development.

Not just major development. Many of these farmers just wanted to sever a 100 acres into maybe ten, 10 acre lots and that was not allowed. It really did punish those areas that dared vote for the Conservatives in 2003.

But I don't think that is project should be ruled out solely for environmental reasons, especially when the economic and transportation benefits are either at par or better than the other options.

Maybe a future government will put a higher weighting factor on the economy.

Come to think of it, it may make sense to number the Hanlon Highway 414 if they don't manage to do a name swap with the existing Highway 406.

I was also thinking of calling the Hanlon as Highway 424 - along with the (future) highway towards Georgetown. Highway 24 went basically from Brantford to Cambridge to Guelph to Caledon - only the Branford to Cambridge portion still exists as a Kings Highway.

 

[nfitz]

I was also thinking of calling the Hanlon as Highway 424 - along with the (future) highway towards Georgetown.

If your going to number Hanlon as something other than 6, then your going to have to consider that as it stands now, the expressway portion (assuming it is all converted to expressway ... and by expressway, I don't mean something with traffic lights) will essentially be extended to Kitchener. So you might as well have a single road number up 6 and west on 7.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

The 424 name may be spoken for. It's the predicted name for a north-south bypass of Cambridge that may or may not be built.

 

[rbt]

The only thing they could sell it for was for other farming activities. A lot of farmers had their retirement plans go up in smoke when that plan was passed.

Quality farmland sells for around $10,000 per acre. Their 100 acre family farm will still be enough to retire on if they keep the soil conditions reasonable.

 

[dunkalunk]

The 424 name may be spoken for. It's the predicted name for a north-south bypass of Cambridge that may or may not be built.

I think we should worry about the naming of these highways if and when they are constructed. Even with the provincial announcement, I don't see much hope that Highway 7N will be built in it's proposed form.

 

[Dan416]

True enough. But it's fun to speculate about future highway numbers. If the province would just assign them on its own we wouldn't have to speculate now would we? Though I realize plans change (Hence a portion of the 403 being built as part of the 407 instead).

 

[gweed123]

Quality farmland sells for around $10,000 per acre. Their 100 acre family farm will still be enough to retire on if they keep the soil conditions reasonable.

It's still very decent, but still nowhere near what developers are paying for comparably-sized land. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't exactly a lineup of people waiting to purchase farmland for the purpose of farming, except for agribusiness and adjacent farmers looking to add more land to their farm.

Chances are a Provincial expropriation for the purposes of a new highway is probably the best deal they're going to see come across their table.

The 424 name may be spoken for. It's the predicted name for a north-south bypass of Cambridge that may or may not be built.

Which makes sense, considering it's very close to Highway 24. If there's a parallel highway that will serve remotely the same function as the existing highway, I think that number should be reserved for if/when it's upgraded (ex: Highway 411 should be reserved for the upgrading of Highway 11, and not used somewhere else). Highway 406 didn't follow this and it'll potentially cause a pretty big headache once Highway 6 is upgraded to 400 series standards.

413 and 414 make sense to use as "new" highways because their 2 digit counterparts don't exist.

If your going to number Hanlon as something other than 6, then your going to have to consider that as it stands now, the expressway portion (assuming it is all converted to expressway ... and by expressway, I don't mean something with traffic lights) will essentially be extended to Kitchener. So you might as well have a single road number up 6 and west on 7.

I thought the plan was to T the upgraded 7 with the upgraded 6, wasn't it? If that's the case, you're more likely to see a DVP-Gardiner interchange than a 90 degree turn in the highway.

 

[marcus_a_j]

It seems that based on the report the only real factor why it was screened out was the environmental impact. It had equal economic benefits, and was one of the best choices in terms of serving the transportation demands.

Going through the Escarpment, yes I can see how it can be a problem. But putting a transportation corridor through the Greenbelt? I know when the Greenbelt Act was enacted, a lot of farmers whose land was inside the Greenbelt were pretty pissed, because it basically made their land worthless because it couldn't be sold off for development. The only thing they could sell it for was for other farming activities. A lot of farmers had their retirement plans go up in smoke when that plan was passed.

Sure, it would be better to have a transit corridor through the Greenbelt instead, but that's not very likely to happen. An expressway isn't the best option, but I'd take an expressway through Greenbelt lands than somebody trying to push through a rural residential subdivision.

I know this makes me sound like I'm anti-environmental, but I'm really not. I just don't get this whole notion of "oh it's greenbelt lands, therefore we have to take a BANANA approach". For a lot of the Greenbelt lands, there's very little to differentiate one side of the road which is protected lands from the other side of the road that isn't. It's a 100m wide ROW, not a massive subdivision that we're talking about here.

The Escarpment is a different story though, but I'm sure there can be some ways in which the impact can be minimized.

But I don't think that is project should be ruled out solely for environmental reasons, especially when the economic and transportation benefits are either at par or better than the other options.

It's not so much the impact on the Greenbelt lands themselves, but the land that is open up to development beyond the Greenbelt as a result of a new higher-order transportation corridor. Many critics of the Greenbelt argue that its implementation exacerbates sprawl by encouraging leapfrog development, just look at Simcoe County. Widening the 401 and a few county roads will not attract the same amount of new greenfield development that a new highway corridor will.

 

[gweed123]

It's not so much the impact on the Greenbelt lands themselves, but the land that is open up to development beyond the Greenbelt as a result of a new higher-order transportation corridor. Many critics of the Greenbelt argue that its implementation exacerbates sprawl by encouraging leapfrog development, just look at Simcoe County. Widening the 401 and a few county roads will not attract the same amount of new greenfield development that a new highway corridor will.

I would argue though that Guelph isn't exactly a "leapfrog development". Yes, you're going to have some people commuting into the GTA, but that corridor is also going to spur a lot of development within Guelph, for Guelph. It's not exactly a bedroom community.

If this was almost any other part of the GTA, for example York Region, I would agree with you. The new development spurred on by the extension of Highway 404 is mainly going to be Toronto-oriented traffic. Not very many of those new residents are actually going to be working in Newmarket. Same thing with highways like the 407 East, which is going to create a lot of bedroom suburbs in the more northern parts of Durham Region.

 

[Hipster Duck]

(I hope this was satire, because I have a case of the roffles)

In all seriousness though, upgrading the Hanlon and increasing the 401 to 10 lanes from Milton to Cambridge (Higwhay 24) should be more than sufficient for the area. I'd much rather the monies be spent on buying upgrading and putting service on the parallel rail corridor between Guelph and Brampton.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. The internet isn't good at revealing that

I think that building any northwestern bypass in the escarpment is overkill and is just an excuse to induce car trips and induce sprawl. We already have a bypass, so to speak, in the form of the 407 and even if traffic is heavy during rush hour, it's not really jammed. The last thing we should be doing is building more freeways or even more lane capacity. The only freeway expansion I support is to widen the 401 to 8 lanes to KW and the QEW to 8 lanes to Niagara - but only if the added lanes are HOV or toll lanes.

I might also support an expanded highway 7 between Guelph and Kitchener, but only if there are no exits (so as to prevent infill sprawl) and if we simultaneously upgrade the GO line for all day service.

 

[nfitz]

True enough. But it's fun to speculate about future highway numbers.

I'm scratching my head trying to remember the last time the province actually needed to number a new highway. 416 in the 1980s? Last 400-series before that was probably in the early-mid 1970s.

Not exactly a regular occurrence.