BurlOak
Senior Member
I would guess that the problems are mostly caused by the number of lanes of DVP south of 401. I doubt changing the interchange would make any difference.
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- Thread starter Haljackey
- Start date
Megaton327
Senior Member
If the province would like to actually get serious about HOV lanes, I'd like to see them make a very simple, inexpensive modification to this interchange: install barriers to make the southbound left lane on the 404 end right before where the current HOV lane merge is located, have the HOV lane become the new left lane into the interchange, then ~100m south remove the barriers and have it revert to a regular lane.
Taking a GO Bus that hits the interchange around 10 AM, the HOV lane stops moving a bit before the merge, from that point it probably takes about 15 minutes to get to the transit/emergency lane on the DVP. Everybody in that HOV lane ends up having to wait to merge into the regular lane, and a lot of people in the regular lane refuse to let them in.
They're extending that southbound HOV lane so that it starts all the way up at Green Lane in the foreseeable future--having it end in a merge into a usually-clogged regular lane is idiotic. If they're serious about it, make 2 regular lanes merge into 1, and make the HOV lane continue unimpeded.
Also, they seriously need to install barriers (flexi-posts/bollards) from the HOV exit point for Finch down to the DVP interchange--there's no reason to have that stretch open since entry/exit is prohibited south of Finch, and it's the #1 place I've seen in the GTA for people going 0 km/h to suddenly dart out in front of 120 km/h traffic with no signal. It needs to be stopped, I've never seen a single police car in that stretch despite this happening every few seconds during most of the day. I understand it's difficult and somewhat unnecessary to install bollards the entire length of the lane with all of the exits, but why not do it south of Finch?
Edit: whipped up a crummy MS Paint mockup of what I mean:
The red dots represent bollards (having started all the way up at Finch) and the red line represents either a concrete barrier or very tightly spaced bollards. The horizontal green line at the south end represents where it stops being an HOV lane and lane changes are allowed.
Taking a GO Bus that hits the interchange around 10 AM, the HOV lane stops moving a bit before the merge, from that point it probably takes about 15 minutes to get to the transit/emergency lane on the DVP. Everybody in that HOV lane ends up having to wait to merge into the regular lane, and a lot of people in the regular lane refuse to let them in.
They're extending that southbound HOV lane so that it starts all the way up at Green Lane in the foreseeable future--having it end in a merge into a usually-clogged regular lane is idiotic. If they're serious about it, make 2 regular lanes merge into 1, and make the HOV lane continue unimpeded.
Also, they seriously need to install barriers (flexi-posts/bollards) from the HOV exit point for Finch down to the DVP interchange--there's no reason to have that stretch open since entry/exit is prohibited south of Finch, and it's the #1 place I've seen in the GTA for people going 0 km/h to suddenly dart out in front of 120 km/h traffic with no signal. It needs to be stopped, I've never seen a single police car in that stretch despite this happening every few seconds during most of the day. I understand it's difficult and somewhat unnecessary to install bollards the entire length of the lane with all of the exits, but why not do it south of Finch?
Edit: whipped up a crummy MS Paint mockup of what I mean:
The red dots represent bollards (having started all the way up at Finch) and the red line represents either a concrete barrier or very tightly spaced bollards. The horizontal green line at the south end represents where it stops being an HOV lane and lane changes are allowed.
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Steve X
Senior Member
That's just an invitation for someone to drift off lane and end up dead within a few hours bollards are installed. They wouldn't last a week without proper shoulder lanes. The design is terrible for 80+ km/h. There need to widen the roadway by 2 shoulder lanes (at least 6-8m) to actually install any sort of divider. You'll see any single lane exit lanes still have shoulder space.
I agree HOV lanes are dangerous without physical separation. Research has shown that. It would cost millions more to widen the area that MTO doesn't want to spend money on as it doesn't benefit them politically.
Megaton327
Senior Member
How on Earth would that cause somebody to end up dead?!? People are perfectly capable of drifting off lane now when there's zero separation.
Steve X
Senior Member
Someone is going to smack into the beginning of the dividers at 130 km/h+ (Finch you say) not during a traffic jam. It's going to cut the car in half right down the middle. It's going to happen with someone on the phone. Much easier for a truck to do so too. There are bent signs and damaged barrels everyone on the freeway from people going off course. The current buffer strip isn't wide enough for them to safely install physical dividers. They'll have to wide the highway all the way from Finch. With a physical divider, they will need to install another left shoulder too (to meet modern standards of an urban freeway).
This is how. Imagine the red line is the physical barrier. Dead!
This is the exit lane at Sheppard.
The collector-express separation just south of here is already substandard as the highway ROW isn't wide enough. It will do given all the lane marking separation to the physical barrier is 268m oppose to 137m at the Sheppard exit. More time for drivers to pay attention.
The highway would need to shift west by 6m to accommodate this separation for it to be "safe" to install a physical barrier. Given the fact that they are tight on space already (the 1m buffer strip doesn't even exist) south of Sheppard, it's hard to install a physical barrier without taking a lane away.
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Megaton327
Senior Member
Okay, so we can go with flexi-post bollards. It's not optimal for preventing entry, but space them every 1 metre during the "divider" stretch and that should deter entry pretty neatly. Many HOV lanes in the US use them.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Fun fact: There's actually nothing illegal about crossing solid white or yellow lines on the road in Ontario, as long as it's safe to do so (i.e. if nobody's coming behind you). There is a law against "disobeying signs", but that requires a clearly visible sign to be posted - right now the only clear (i.e. overhead) sign telling you not to cross is all the way down at the 401 exit.
Megaton327
Senior Member
I have realized this technically doesn't apply to the bit right before the HOV lane ends, but it seems you're replying to my comment about the buffer zone stretching south from Finch. There is a difference between a simple solid white line and the HOV buffer zone, and crossing that buffer zone is certainly illegal per https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/050620
O. Reg. 620/05: HIGH OCCUPANCY VEHICLE LANES
under Highway Traffic Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8
Buffer zones
3. (1) Entry and exit points at which vehicles may enter or exit high occupancy vehicle lanes are located between buffer zones, illustrated in Figure A in section 4. O. Reg. 620/05, s. 3 (1).
(2) No person shall operate a motor vehicle or commercial motor vehicle to enter or exit a high occupancy vehicle lane by crossing a buffer zone[...]
Regarding your point about signage, "(4) High occupancy vehicle lane signs shall not be more than four kilometres apart from each other. O. Reg. 620/05, s. 5 (4)." There are certainly "do not cross [buffer zone]" signs within 4km of each other for the entire length of that lane.
The last bit of the lane right as you approach the 401 interchange does change from having a buffer zone to a single solid white line, which you can technically cross if safe to do so, but as soon as you cross into the HOV lane from the normal lane, you're subject to the HOV lane requirements e.g. 2+/green vehicle/taxi/transit/etc. It's fairly unlikely that someone who's permitted to use the HOV lane all the way from Finch will stay out of it and jump in for the last ~100m.
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Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Am I the only one who feels that the southbound 404 to 401 east to DVP lane be removed completely and replace that with an extra lane going southbound from 404 to DVP?
If you accidentally do to the 401 lanes instead of the DVP, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the road. I understand some people use that lane on purpose to bypass a bit of traffic to speed up commute, but how many are there?
If you accidentally do to the 401 lanes instead of the DVP, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the road. I understand some people use that lane on purpose to bypass a bit of traffic to speed up commute, but how many are there?
epcjay
New Member
That's meant for the people from Sheppard to access the DVP. Most use it to by pass traffic however....
Steve X
Senior Member
Yes, it will solve many problems and give the space for the HOV lane to be divided. Is it worth the money? probably not cause the DVP congestion is city hall's problem, not MTO.
Mr_Praline
New Member
Speaking of 401 eastward widening, MTO will be replacing the Henry Street bridge structure over the 401 in Whitby this summer. Tough to nail down exactly what's planned, as one MTO website put this work in 2021-22 but another said this year, but there is certainly mobilization going on with some Soncin equipment and signage already in place as of Friday. Hopefully I can pop in to the local library this week as the designs are apparently filed there.
The Henry St bridge, together with the Brock St bridge also in Whitby, are some of the oldest (if not the eldest) structures left on the 401 and are some of the constraints holding back anything bigger than 6 lanes east of Ajax.
The Henry St bridge, together with the Brock St bridge also in Whitby, are some of the oldest (if not the eldest) structures left on the 401 and are some of the constraints holding back anything bigger than 6 lanes east of Ajax.
ShonTron
Moderator
Those bridges pre-date Highway 401; they were built in 1939-1940 for Highway 2A.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
they are some of the oldest freeway structures in the province, if not the oldest. Highway 2A was the first fully controlled access highway in the province, and as ShonTron said, the bridge structures date from the 1930's.
darth_freeman
Active Member
The problem is not the 404/401 interchange, but the # of lanes on DVP southbound. You could:
- Widen DVP to 5 lanes SB to Lawrence
- Widen DVP to 4 lanes SB to Eglinton
- Close York Mills Interchange or restrict access to reduce weaving
- Include some form of HOV lane