Undead
Senior Member
Politics are the darndest thing, aren't they?Vaughan might be surprised by that.
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Politics are the darndest thing, aren't they?Vaughan might be surprised by that.
But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.Not taking sides here but want to state that this widening is taking place in the 401's existing right of way. No additional farm land is being eaten up by this project or similar ones taking place in Cambridge, Tilbury and elsewhere. The same cannot be said for new builds like the 413 for example.
This is absolutely not true and is a wild misconception.But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.
Ok if we're talking about extending the Express to Milton, then yes you are correct. My point was about just adding the extra lane though. Furthermore extending the express to Milton does nothing for the overcrowded Toronto and eastern Mississauga sections.This is absolutely not true and is a wild misconception.
There is a very clear differential between new infrastructure inducing new trips and it actively making traffic *worse*. I can guarantee you that the 401 through Milton and Mississauga will operate far, far better than it did before the widening once it was complete. It may not operate perfectly forever as growth occurs, but it's not going to be the same situation as it was before for at least a generation.
The highway widenings that seem "pointless" are the ones that add only a small amount of capacity in an area experiencing high growth. I.e. widening the Gardiner would not really improve traffic at all as it would simply convert transit trips and serves a high growth area, or the QEW widening through Halton a decade ago which increased the road capacity by only about 20% on a highway which has been experiencing extremely rapid demand growth, resulting in traffic returning to it's pre-widening state within a decade.
The 401 to Milton is effectively doubling capacity on the highway, it will be adequate outside of peak rush hour for decades to come.
The QEW through Halton did add an HOV lane though, which has been extremely useful.The highway widenings that seem "pointless" are the ones that add only a small amount of capacity in an area experiencing high growth. I.e. widening the Gardiner would not really improve traffic at all as it would simply convert transit trips and serves a high growth area, or the QEW widening through Halton a decade ago which increased the road capacity by only about 20% on a highway which has been experiencing extremely rapid demand growth, resulting in traffic returning to it's pre-widening state within a decade.
Indeed it is, albeit it hasn't improved traffic much on the QEW a decade later. Particularly in rush hours it's fairly underutilized and has a minimal impact on overall throughput. It is heavily used on weekends for recreational traffic though, which I generally agree should be the focus.The QEW through Halton did add an HOV lane though, which has been extremely useful.
But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.
Ontario generally has been building HOVs with any new urban widening project - but they definitely still add GP lanes. The 427 widening north of the 409 took it from 4 to 6+2HOV for example, The 401 widening through Mississauga and milton is taking it from 6 to 8/10+2HOV, the 401 widening in Cambridge took it from 6 to 12, there are a bunch of 6-laning projects on rural parts of the 401 in various stages of construction and approval, the 417 is getting widened from 6 to 8 lanes through the eastern part of Ottawa, etc.Very few, if any, projects actually simply add an additional general lane to a highway. They either add HOV/managed lanes, are combined with bridge replacements, rehabilitations, or convert express/collector lanes, increase safety by extending merge/weaving distances, etc.
So many articles about why adding lanes is bad, but it's so rare that lanes are simply added for capacity only. The 401 express/collector conversion will add redundancy as well incase there is an accident on one set of lanes.
6 to 8+2HOV but carry onOntario generally has been building HOVs with any new urban widening project - but they definitely still add GP lanes. The 427 widening north of the 409 took it from 4 to 6+2HOV for example
It's hard to take these kinds of people seriously, they need to realize that car infrastructure is a necessity in Ontario, especially in the GTA, but I can also understand the other side of the coin.
It was a way of saying that such low density suburbs 50+ km from city centre will never have subways or extensive bus network and they will always be car reliant. The best we can do is to take some more downtown bound traffic off the roads by improving GO service but on any other route, car is the only reasonable option. If we did not want to expand 401, we should have built Toronto a lot more dense and Mississauga should have been an outer suburb with high density. Milton should not have existed.Milton, subways, huh? I daresay one of the best ways to ensure a given municipality never gets subways is by building sprawl oriented infrastructure. Note I'm not a fan of the urbanist histrionics against the 413. But all drama aside, it's still probably not the type of thing we should be building. Yes, all suburban munis need significant transit improvements.
The best we can do would be to stop building these goddamn places.It was a way of saying that such low density suburbs 50+ km from city centre will never have subways or extensive bus network and they will always be car reliant. The best we can do is to take some more downtown bound traffic off the roads by improving GO service but on any other route, car is the only reasonable option. If we did not want to expand 401, we should have built Toronto a lot more dense and Mississauga should have been an outer suburb with high density. Milton should not have existed.
Also remember that improving GO services on Milton line is a multi-billion dollar (and possibly multi-decade) project. That's just for downtown bound traffic. It does not even address traffic for other routes. How much did the 401 expansion which not only helps Milton but also Mississauga cost? Around $850 million. And how long did it take? Just a handful of years. There you go!
(If someone claims 401 expansion only helps the routes that are along 401 then let me remind you that cars wanting to drive on 400, 404, 427, Gardiner etc will use 401 first. While using GO to travel from Milton to Brampton is not a reasonable option.)