[Haljackey]

What is the 400 extensions design speed? does anyone know?

I'm almost certain all widening, extension and reconstitution projects have a design speed of 130.

However rehabilitation projects like the one being done on the 403 in Hamilton which don't improve the overall design of the highway has their design speed remain the same.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Perhaps the HOV lanes can be designated at a 110 or 120 km/hr speed limit? Some countries in Europe have scaled speed limits based on the driving lane, 100 km/h in the right lane, 110 in the middle lane, 120 in the left lane.

130 requires utmost focus? Doubtful, I found myself on the Southbound 400 the other day (after about 4 yrs of not driving on it. 427 is closer to me) and was surprised when I looked down at my speedometer to find that I was travelling 130 km/hr just to keep up with the flow of traffic. I didn't find any extra focus required to maintain that speed.

I've previously proposed, increase in speed limits or not, that enforcement be based percentage over the speed limit rather than a hard cap 20 over, 30 over, 40 over, etc. For example travelling at 120 Km/h on a highway marked at 100 Km/h is 20% over the speed limit, and as has been mentioned the highway was likely designed to handle this speed. Versus say travelling at 60 Km/h on a 40 Km/h street is 50% over the speed limit. Currently these are treated as the same offence while I would say that the person travelling at 60 in a 40 is likely far more dangerous (as a 40 Km/h zone is usually a small residential street where pedestrians will be walking and there is the chance that someone or some automobile will "jump" out of nowhere) than the person doing 120 in a 100 zone as it is a controlled road. What do you think?

 

[Haljackey]

Changeable speed limits would work great here, especially when bundled with the COMPASS system in the GTA.

However I'm against solely increasing the speed limit for HOV lanes. People assume they're a passing lane because they're on the left and thus want to go really fast, whereas the leftmost general purpose lane is in fact the passing lane.

I'd say if people feel comfortable doing 120 and the cops don't really care then you may as well make the speed limit 120. That way people won't feel like a criminal going a perfectly reasonable speed.

Try doing 100 when traffic is moving well. It's quite scary, even in the rightmost lane. That's my biggest beef with the 100 speed limit, it's actually unsafe.

 

[innsertnamehere]

but then you have those small straight country roads where you can see for 2 km (and see that there is no oncoming traffic) with a speed limit of 40km/h because of how narrow the street is, but you can easily do 80 on it comfortably. It wouldn't be right to be charged with a 100% over the speed limit on those roads.. somebody doing that speed on a road like that should not face a similar punishment to someone doing 200km/h down the highway.

also, I often see cops doing 130 down the highway, or at least passing me when I am doing 120. I completely agree, the speed limit should be raised to 120, even if it does involve them ticketing people when they are doing 10km/h over instead of 30km/h over currently.

 

[Translude15]

I used an HOV lane for the first time yesterday. Southbound at 3 pm on the 404 at Steeles I said to my wife let's try the HOV lane, so we did.

Big mistake, we were only travelling at about 110kph, not nearly fast enough for the half dozen cars that piled up behind us very rapidly looking for a more NASCAR like velocity. Every one of them solved the problem by passing us on the right across the solid lines and recrossing said lines again to regain the HOV lane without that annoying car doing only 10 over the speed limit. I am not sure, what with keeping my eyes on the road, but I think at least 2 of these 6 cars had no passengers on board to qualify them for the use of the HOV lanes.

Rather than causing an accident by obeying the law we transferred out of the HOV lanes at the first legal opportunity.

I take the 403 to get to work and it seems that the stretch from the 407 to Eastgate is the most heavily patrolled section of 400 series highway. Even in morning rush hour people are pulled over for HOV lane violations and the OPP have numerous speed traps set up along its length.

Part of the allure of using the HOV lanes is to bypass traffic. If traffic is thick at 3 pm, going the speed limit in the HOV lane defeats the purpose of using the lane in the first place. You're not really travelling much faster than regular traffic. Going 120 km/h allows for a continuous flow of vehicles through the HOV lane and prevents cars from bunching up.

Raising the speed limits on the 400 series highways is totally reasonable, and I'm all for it, but I think many are forgetting two important factors which will probably prevent such an increase from occurring:

1) Speeding tickets are a huge revenue source for municipalities and the province. It's unlikely they will be willing to part ways such easy revenue generating "tools".

2) The MTO will want to maintain current speed limits in the name of safety, and in a way they are correct. There are enough bad drivers out there who can barely drive with the current speed limits, never mind increasing them 20-30 km. If someone can't change lanes safely going 90 km/h on the highway, what are the chances they will be able to do so legally at 120 km/h? Current speed limits are essentially a form of risk management by saving incompetent drivers from themselves.

 

[drum118]

You will find dumb drivers in the HOV lane refusing to do 100 in the first place to the point you are far better off in the standard left lane to pass them. Its a bitch to be doing 120 in that lane to come upon that fool.

These are the same drivers you will find in the left lane in the first place than the right lanes. The America's are real bad for driving in the passing lane regardless which country they are in.

As for safety, that where MTO has drop the ball by allowing poor drivers on the road in the first place when they should never been allow on the road in the first place.

To say 120 is too fast and unsafe, yes in city limit, but out side of them should be higher. 130 would be better there since you can do it in many US states today and have far few accidents. Even in the US, speed drops in city limit.

OPP should be going after the slow drivers as they caused most of the accidents in the first place by forcing faster driver to make that non plan lane change to miss them in the first place.

See far too many single drivers in the HOV lanes.

 

[gweed123]

At 100, its easy for people to do 20 or 30 over the limit.

At 120, I think very few people will do more than 10 over the limit. Once you're going 130, driver concentration is pretty much mandatory. Most roads in Europe are 130 and very few go beyond that. In the US some highways are now 80-85MPH (over 130 km/h) and again few go more than 5MPH over this limit.

I think 120 would work well for rural sections. In urban areas maybe 110, with collectors still posted at 100. And of course sections of highway not up to spec would not be posted as high either.

What I would like to see is condition-dependent speed limits.

I'd take a section of Highway 401 that's 6 lanes (say from just east of Oshawa from Cobourg), and have 130kph as the speed limit on a sunny summer day, 120 at night, and have it dependent on road conditions the rest of the time (ex: during a snowstorm it could drop to 90).

For enforcement, I would set up "blocks" for various stretches of the highway, with electronic license plate monitors. If you pass through Point A at noon, and the system knows that Point B is ~30km away, that if you make it to Point B in under X amount of time, that you were averaging Speed Y, and thus should be ticketed Z amount.

If this is successful, I would translate it to the entire 401, and then the entire 400 series highway system.

Another thing I'd like to see is toll roads have a higher speed limit. One of the highways I've included in my fantasy proposals is an Ontario Turnpike (basically Highway 407) running from London to Ottawa, encompassing some of the current sections of the 407 and 407E). If the Turnpike could be signed as 130kph, especially on the Ottawa-Peterborough stretch, I think it would make it an even more attractive alternative to the 401, despite the fact that you'd have to pay for it.

 

[MisterF]

It needs to be rebuilt all the way to Gravenhurst and the entirety of the highway renamed to highway 411, it is way too unsafe currently. Doesn't need to be 6 laned the entire way, but 35-55,000 cars every day is way too much for a RIRO highway, and when they barrel past doing 110km/h there is simply no safe way to enter the highway in any other way other than an interchange with that level of traffic. the lack of proper shoulders seriously steps up the danger factor as well. Heck, the Highway 35 RIRO needs to be replaced as well, I just get uneasy with those types of highways unless they handle under 15,000 cars daily. But alas, this is one of 6 or 7 projects that the MTO very badly needs to address, and only so much can be done. (others including adding a lane to the 404 over the 401, the 417 extension, the 400 widening, and the highway 7 twinning between Waterloo and Guelph)

That stretch of the 35/115 will have a decent bypass when they build the 407 East connector highways. The 407 will connect to the 35/115 near where the full freeway section of the 115 splits off towards Peterborough, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have any plans to upgrade that RIRO stretch at all. Hopefully the tolls will be reasonable.

Ok, then when does it stop? Highway Engineers and MTO over design roads for a reason. Believe it or not it's a liability issue. We can't have people going 10km/h over the limit and getting in accidents?
I'd support a move up to 110. But anything higher means we need stricter speed limit enforcement, as well as laws that say the slower person must move the the right hand lane. We can't have people going 150 in a posted zone of 130, getting a slap on the wrist fine. People will eventually get used to going 120/130 as well and get "distracted"

It stops when speed limits match the speeds that the highway was designed for. I don't see how lawsuits could possibly be an issue if they did that, as they've done on some of the roads in other provinces. This one, for example. Remember, speed limits are supposed to be the maximum. Someone suing the government because they broke the law and got in an accident because of it wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Besides, if the litigation-happy United States can have highways with speed limits of 80+ mph, then surely it wouldn't be an issue here.

There is also still plenty of areas on the 401 between Toronto Montreal which don't meet 120km/h standards, unprotected rock cuts in clearzones, one curve that I can think off. Narrow lanes and no shoulders.

They've done lots of clear zone rock cutting between Belleville -> Kingston. And expansion from Montreal Road in Kingston to Highway 15 will be done in 4 years.

There are highways all over Europe and Asia with lower design standards than that stretch with higher speed limits. That said, there's nothing stopping the government from posting lower speed limits on stretches of highway that have lower standards. They already do, like on the 403 in Hamilton and the 406 in St. Catharines.

2) The MTO will want to maintain current speed limits in the name of safety, and in a way they are correct. There are enough bad drivers out there who can barely drive with the current speed limits, never mind increasing them 20-30 km. If someone can't change lanes safely going 90 km/h on the highway, what are the chances they will be able to do so legally at 120 km/h? Current speed limits are essentially a form of risk management by saving incompetent drivers from themselves.

From what I've read raising speed limits doesn't make highways more dangerous at all. Especially if the increase is simply to account for how fast people are currently driving and if the police enforce the same speeds they do now. Having a speed limit that's so low that it's ignored by the majority of drivers isn't safe.

 

[innsertnamehere]

That stretch of the 35/115 will have a decent bypass when they build the 407 East connector highways. The 407 will connect to the 35/115 near where the full freeway section of the 115 splits off towards Peterborough, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have any plans to upgrade that RIRO stretch at all. Hopefully the tolls will be reasonable.

There will still be about 6km of RIRO expressway between the 407 and 115.

 

[diminutive]

What I would like to see is condition-dependent speed limits.

...
For enforcement, I would set up "blocks" for various stretches of the highway, with electronic license plate monitors. If you pass through Point A at noon, and the system knows that Point B is ~30km away, that if you make it to Point B in under X amount of time, that you were averaging Speed Y, and thus should be ticketed Z amount.

It ought to be possible to use variable speed limits to mitigate congestion. If a traffic management system detected congestion and slower than moving vehicles in block X, it could automatically reduce speed limits and travel speeds in blocks X-1, X-2 and X-3 to give some time for the congestion to clear out a bit.

Makes no sense to have people speeding towards a traffic jam at 120 km/h.

 

[Haljackey]

What I would like to see is condition-dependent speed limits.

I'd take a section of Highway 401 that's 6 lanes (say from just east of Oshawa from Cobourg), and have 130kph as the speed limit on a sunny summer day, 120 at night, and have it dependent on road conditions the rest of the time (ex: during a snowstorm it could drop to 90).

You mean something like this?

French Autoroute sign:

Something like this or variable/changeable speed limits (per lane) would work.

For enforcement, I would set up "blocks" for various stretches of the highway, with electronic license plate monitors. If you pass through Point A at noon, and the system knows that Point B is ~30km away, that if you make it to Point B in under X amount of time, that you were averaging Speed Y, and thus should be ticketed Z amount.

If this is successful, I would translate it to the entire 401, and then the entire 400 series highway system.

This is essentially the same as highway speed cameras, which were deemed unconstitutional. There is still a debate on weather red light cameras are constitutional too.

Another thing I'd like to see is toll roads have a higher speed limit. One of the highways I've included in my fantasy proposals is an Ontario Turnpike (basically Highway 407) running from London to Ottawa, encompassing some of the current sections of the 407 and 407E). If the Turnpike could be signed as 130kph, especially on the Ottawa-Peterborough stretch, I think it would make it an even more attractive alternative to the 401, despite the fact that you'd have to pay for it.

I don't know about other toll roads, but the 407 ETR is just leased by the government and thus the MTO remains in control of the speed limit (one of the conditions of the lease). I think the province said that if any more toll highways would be built they would be owned by the government just like 407 East so you'd have to convince Queens Park, not private enterprises.

 

[innsertnamehere]

if a private company ever approached the government and wished to construct a freeway using it's own money and maintain ownership, I doubt the Province would contest it. the likeliness of that happening is below 0 though, so don't read too much into it.

 

[gweed123]

It ought to be possible to use variable speed limits to mitigate congestion. If a traffic management system detected congestion and slower than moving vehicles in block X, it could automatically reduce speed limits and travel speeds in blocks X-1, X-2 and X-3 to give some time for the congestion to clear out a bit.

Makes no sense to have people speeding towards a traffic jam at 120 km/h.

Very good point. That's another advantage.

You mean something like this?

Yup, except I envision the signs to be electronic, so that there's no confusion like there sometimes is with no left turn or parking signs.

This is essentially the same as highway speed cameras, which were deemed unconstitutional. There is still a debate on weather red light cameras are constitutional too.

Maybe just do point radar detection so that police are alerted then?

I don't know about other toll roads, but the 407 ETR is just leased by the government and thus the MTO remains in control of the speed limit (one of the conditions of the lease). I think the province said that if any more toll highways would be built they would be owned by the government just like 407 East so you'd have to convince Queens Park, not private enterprises.

That's true. My reasoning for increasing the speed limit on toll routes is that people who want to get between say Ottawa and Toronto quickly would have not only a more direct route, but a route where they can drive legally faster. I'd pay the $10 or whatever the toll happened to be if it meant I could shave 1hr off my trip by driving ~130 and about 100km less than the 416-401 combo. The speed limit in this case would be an incentive to take the highway.

 

[innsertnamehere]

building a highway 7 tolled freeway operating at 20km/h over the speed limit of the 401/416 would shave about 30 minutes off of the trip, assuming the increased speed limit starts after 115 ends and ends at the 417, and the trip is measured from the 35 split to downtown ottawa.

 

[gweed123]

building a highway 7 tolled freeway operating at 20km/h over the speed limit of the 401/416 would shave about 30 minutes off of the trip, assuming the increased speed limit starts after 115 ends and ends at the 417, and the trip is measured from the 35 split to downtown ottawa.

That's true. I was also factoring in continuing along Highway 407 to Burlington, which is where I usually go. The traffic on the 401-427-QEW combo is pretty unpredictable, regardless of what time of day.

A 30 min time savings from Peterborough to Ottawa is pretty good though. If the existing 407 had that speed limit too, you'd be looking at between 40 and 45 min time savings.

I would also remove the 115 designation from that existing highway and re-number it 407, in order to have it be continuous. There would only be a brief stretch between where the new 407 interchange meets the existing highway, and where 35 & 115 split off from eachother that the highway would be co-signed as 407/35.

And for clarification, that stretch to Peterborough and the stretch from Carleton Place to the 417 wouldn't be tolled, because it's existing highway. The stretch from Peterborough to Carleton Place would be built on an entirely new alignment, so the existing Highway 7 would still exist as the free option. The Carleton Place to 417 stretch doesn't have that option, because the existing Highway 7 was twinned.