[doady]

Freeways for long distance travel is exactly what they should be built for. I'm only opposed to new freeways for short distances within urban areas, freeways for commutes. Public transit can be an alternative for commutes, not for traveling across the country. I don't see any reason to oppose four-laning across northern Ontario, from Manitoba to Quebec. It's a great idea. Let's unite Canada, connect the west to the east. I fully support that.

 

[nfitz]

Some portions of the 400 extension have run close to a billion for a km

Which portion of the 400 extension is near a billion for a km?

 

[innsertnamehere]

none of it. $7 million per km is the cost of the latest portion. Its supposed to be a billion for the entire twinning from parry sound up to sudbury.

 

[1overcosc]

Extending Highway 417 from Ottawa westwards all the way to the Manitoba border, as a full 400-series expressway with no level crossings, has been costed at approximately $20 billion. No way that's being funded.

What is likely is that highway widening will instead by RIRO style--think Highway 11 through Orillia or that southern part of Highway 35. That would be much cheaper--maybe $10 billion or so? So still not likely.

What I can see the government doing with this specific program, barring federal money, is:
-Arnprior to Petawawa (possibly Deep River): 417 extension as a full expressway
-Petawawa (possibly Deep River) to Sault Ste. Marie: RIRO style 4 lanes
-Sault Ste. Marie to Nipigon: 2 lanes for now (no change).
-Nipigon to Thunder Bay: RIRO style 4 lanes is already funded and U/C (none of this $29B has to go this one)
-Thunder Bay to Shabaqua: RIRO style 4 lanes
-Shabaqua to Kenora: 2 lanes for now (no change)
-Kenora to Manitoba border: I believe it's already funded and U/C like Nipigon-Thunder Bay but I'm not sure.

I can see this costing about $4B-$5B. While not a full widening it would be a huge game changer.

Full widening between Nipigon and the Soo would be the most expensive section thanks to the geology--it's also the section with the lowest ridership as well. So widening it won't come for quite a while.

 

[innsertnamehere]

RIROs are not up to design standards anymore, and are not built new. Kenora to Manitoba and Thunder Bay to Nipigon are being built like prairie province highways, with at grade intersections at all roads other than major highways.

I presume the liberals are hoping for some major Federal funding on this, and that is very realistic. Feds love assigning funding to highway expansion to the TCH, and now that most of the TCH outside of Northern Ontario is twinned, Northern Ontario projects looks especially good.

 

[1overcosc]

If the feds chip in $5B for Highway 17 we could very well see 4-lane expressways** from Halifax all the way to Calgary. It would be a beautiful day.

**if you can count Prairie style roads as expressways

$5B would be a lot though. The feds are stingy. They've only budgeted $10B total for their new infra fund. While they will have a surplus next year (about $6B--but lately they've been undershooting estimates so they can be like 'WOAH WE HAVE WAY MORE THAN WE THOUGHT' feel-good moment, so its probably going to be more like $8-9B) they're going to suck up $3B with their tax cuts they've already pledged for the magical day they hit balance. That means they'll hand out maybe $5B or so in money. Because that's in 2015 they'll be giving it out in places where they can buy votes. Northern Ontario is all NDP so we might see Highway 17 funds.

 

[innsertnamehere]

any surplus will likely go to the debt, don't be expecting lots of free money after that. $5 billion surplus likely means $5 billion in debt payments.

I'm not expecting $5 billion to go towards this, maybe $1 billion, but you also have to remember that this would occur over 10 years, plenty of time for additional money to roll in.

 

[ShonTron]

If anything its one thing I appreciate in Harper. He has gone to great lengths to help build Canada's national highway network, building highways across the country that are helping traffic and freight movement everywhere. In a few years you will be able to drive from Halifax to Windsor on freeways, something that was unthinkable a decade ago.

Harper?

The only two-lane section left to be funded by the time Harper got in power was Autoroute 85 between the New Brunswick border and Rivière-du-Loup through Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! Work on that was planned and started in 2006.

Highway 401 and Autoroute 20 were completed decades ago. So was NS Highway 102 and most of Highway 104 (except the Cobequid Pass, opened as a toll road in 1997). NB Route 2 was completely four-laned by 2007, the last segments funded by a provincial P3 "hidden toll".

So a complete freeway from Windsor to Halifax unthinkable a decade ago? Ha! (Or should I say Ha! Ha!?) Harper had almost nothing to do with it.

 

[ShonTron]

The only sections of the TCH in Ontario in need of four laning are Highway 17 from the Manitoba border to Kenora (and the Highway 71 cut-off); the Highway 11-17 junction west of Thunder Bay to Thunder Bay, Thunder Bay to the Highway 11-17 junction near Nipigon, Sault Ste. Marie to Whitefish (west of Sudbury), Sudbury-North Bay, the first 10 kilometres east of North Bay on 17, and Deep River to Arnprior.

That's about half of the remaining two-lane sections of the main TCH route through Ontario. It was hard enough completing Highway 17 between Nipigon and Sault Ste. Marie. Many, if not most through trucks opt for the older, longer - but easier - route via Highway 11 through Hearst and Cochrane anyway.

There are other four-laning projects also badly needed, like Highway 6 from the 401 to Freelton, Highway 7-8 to Stratford, Highway 7 Perth to Carleton Place and of course the oft-delayed Guelph-Kitchener project (which should have been widened on the existing Hwy 7 years ago).

 

[MisterF]

The first link built between cities is always a freeway, no matter where you go in the world.

That's not true actually. The first link between cities (other than a basic road) is almost always a passenger rail line. Most countries have far more extensive rail networks than freeway networks. That's the case even in regions similar to northern Ontario.

We've been doing things the opposite way for so long it's easy to forget that we're the outlier.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Arnprior - Deep River (freeway to Petawawa, dual carriageway to Deep River) Mattawa - Sault Ste. Marie, Nipigon - highway 11 split (twin highway 102 as well, no point taking the longer 17 route), and Kenora to the border. I wouldn't mind some sort of connection to I-75 and the Twinning of 61 south of TB either, as well as some sort of Sault. Ste. Marie bypass.

Stratford to highway was done up as an upgraded regular road, not to be done as a 400 series highway. a mix of 4 laning and dual carriageways. I think they wanted a singular new interchange with a couple of lights still mixed in if I recall correctly. 6 is probably fine as a 4 lane road, upgrading it beyond that will really start to attract sprawl. Maybe add an interchange with Dundas.

Agreed on 7 to Perth, build it to 400 series standards IMO.

another priority should be to upgrade 11 south of Orillia as well, its a 4 lane RIRO that sees 40,000 AADT. Get an HOV on the 400 all the way to Barrie as well.


Yes but is the first link HSR or a freeway? its a freeway. you may see regular rail connections such as VIA or something, but that is hardly a "superior" option. Its the rail equivalent of a 2 lane 80-90km/h road. The first thing to hit a city normally is a 4 lane freeway, not 200km/h rail with hourly frequencies that is required to make it a "superior option". Even in if you were correct, travel in the north is so decentralized that a freeway is the only real way of dealing with it. I'm much more lenient with it in southern Ontario, I would rather somewhere like Stratford have a strong rail link than a freeway, but up north its a completely different context.

 

[MisterF]

Yes but is the first link HSR or a freeway? its a freeway. you may see regular rail connections such as VIA or something, but that is hardly a "superior" option. Its the rail equivalent of a 2 lane 80-90km/h road. The first thing to hit a city normally is a 4 lane freeway, not 200km/h rail with hourly frequencies that is required to make it a "superior option".

Oh I didn't realize you were talking about HSR, in which case you're right in most cases. But not always. The 200+ km/h rail networks in Sweden and Finland are roughly the same size as their freeway networks and reach some towns that freeways don't. In Russia, the Moscow-St. Petersburg corridor has HSR but no freeway at all.

Even in if you were correct, travel in the north is so decentralized that a freeway is the only real way of dealing with it. I'm much more lenient with it in southern Ontario, I would rather somewhere like Stratford have a strong rail link than a freeway, but up north its a completely different context.

I'm trying to think of another region similar to northern Ontario with a freeway crossing it. Outside the United States I can't think of a single one. Even in the States, the freeways crossing the desert aren't as long as a freeway across northern Ontario would be. Passenger rail, OTOH, is quite common in large, sparsely populated regions. Either way, any kind of high capacity transport infrastructure across the north would be a huge expense and require large subsidies to operate.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I agree that many sections aren't needed, such as Sault Ste. Marie to Thunder Bay, but other sections are perfectly excusable. If you are looking for an off north america example take a look at the G30 in China. It runs over 2,300 kilometres to the Kazakhstan border, with only a few smaller cities along the way. (being china there are more than northern Ontario but lower auto ownership rates offset that)

Also, I believe Moscow - St. Petersburg has a sort of RIRO for much of the length, and Russia is famous for its underbuilt infrastructure anyway. I dropped down into streetview on a random part of the road between Moscow and St. Petersburg and got this.

 

[Haljackey]

Here is a video I made showing progress on the Rt. Hon. Herb Gray Parkway, which will connect to a new US/Canada border crossing when complete.

[video=youtube;nIgn0AInUhc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIgn0AInUhc[/video]

Compare to a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7LSnG-1VCk

 

[Haljackey]

I have never driven the 401 through Toronto in it's entirety. I thought Easter Sunday would be a nice day for a drive as traffic volumes on the road would be lighter. It was still very busy but I was able to record the entire stretch over 6 lanes!

[video=youtube;GMtusG5tuC8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMtusG5tuC8[/video]


At the end I noticed work being done on the West Durham Link. Looks like you can see it in Google Maps too.

Coordinates: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.8666573,-78.9762609,1724m/data=!3m1!1e3