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And for the record, I am not saying this because I want the latter to join the race to draw the votes from RF so that someone else can win the race - but because I think that Tory is far more desirable as a mayoral candidate than any of the current batch of candidates.

AoD

Well at least you understand some of the reasoning that goes behind supporting Ford. He probably would not make for the best mayor in terms of the environment or on planning issues (his involvement in the Woodbine Live project begs to differ) but at least his is a stragetic vote to prevent any chance of Smitherman or Pantalone winning. Rossi's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Sarah Thomson in ideal situations would have been my first choice, but she's green. We need experienced insiders in municipal politics, a watchdog who'll advocate ways to make the cost of living better for average Torontonians. When citizens can keep more money in their pockets, they'll have more to invest on local business and industry. Entrepreneurs can take on private initiatives towards community-building. We don't necessarily need or want big government to tell us what's best for us, and ram through their agendas at any and all costs.

If Tory does run I'll reconsider my options, but til then I'd very much appreciate it if the forum would stop insinuating that somehow I'm stupid or crazy for supporting Ford in a myriad of veiled insults. This is a democracy where freedom of choice matters, is it not?
 
If Tory does run I'll reconsider my options, but til then I'd very much appreciate it if the forum would stop insinuating that somehow I'm stupid or crazy for supporting Ford in a myriad of veiled insults. This is a democracy where freedom of choice matters, is it not?
Sure, you have every right to support Rob Ford ... or anyone for mayor.

What I think people are objecting to, is that you are justifying your support with comments on how Rob Ford would improve transit in the city. It's not your support, but completely absurd justifications. We all know Rob Ford wants to gut transit; he's talked about this for years.
 
If Tory does run I'll reconsider my options, but til then I'd very much appreciate it if the forum would stop insinuating that somehow I'm stupid or crazy for supporting Ford in a myriad of veiled insults. This is a democracy where freedom of choice matters, is it not?

Yeah, but this is Urban Toronto. And like it or not, there's a pretty conspicuous "urban design" undercurrent here. In which case, freedom of choice may hypothetically matter--but it's no excuse for an inappropriate McMansion any old where. "Freedom of choice" only goes so far.

And that's what you're like in UT: metaphorically speaking, you're a loud, obnoxious, tasteless design-builder asserting the right to build your McMansion here. And I'm not even talking about "contemporary design" a la the Beech proposal; I'm talking about hyperthyroid malformed pidgin Georgian/Chateau-style w/ cheesy details and pasty materials. Which, actually, you find plenty of across Toronto...so, I suppose that's what you mean by "average Torontonians"? The ones whom that kind of design serves?

You got to face it. It isn't that you're a conservative. It's that you're a philistine. You have...no taste.

And you've never addressed these issues of taste; probably because you know it's a lose/lose situation, that you haven't a leg to stand on vs the crowd making the accusation.

And that's the thing about Rob Ford: he quite blatantly appeals to the militant philistine. Even as a frontrunner, he isn't going to get support from the arts/cultural/design/planning community at all. (cf. Mel Lastman, who may have been personally philistine but wasn't millitant about it, and could count on a few Al Waxmans and Norman Jewisons in his unembarrassed camp).

Who Ford might more typically get support from are, well, ordinary-Joe builders and teardown specialists who can count on Unca Rob to slay the bureaucrats on their behalf. But...really?!? Is that good?!?

Within a UT context, why on earth would you side with that crowd?

And if so, why are you in UT?
 
But that's the point. He says he's a big Pride supporter then votes against funding. To me, that sounds like someone who is playing political games and is saying f__ off out of one side of his mouth and "glad to meet you" out of the other. I can't trust a guy like that.

It shows that while he can support the pride events and gays rights, he doesn't support public funding for such events like this. If he openly supported public funding for other events but then was quoted as wanting to deny same funding to pride, you would have a more valid point.
 
Honestly...I'd support anyone who Sue Ann Levy opposes. I can't stand her style of writing and she dumbs down the debate to such an extent that it makes me want to scream.
 
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It shows that while he can support the pride events and gays rights, he doesn't support public funding for such events like this. If he openly supported public funding for other events but then was quoted as wanting to deny same funding to pride, you would have a more valid point.

Well, tkip, I've validated her point. From AoD's original collection of RF quotes:

"I don't think we should be supporting sexuality and that's where this money is going."

He doesn't have a problem with supporting stuff. He has a problem supporting "sexuality." I'm sure he votes to support the Santa Claus Day Parade.

Please don't play dumb, tkip. The man is a homophobe, and it is obnoxious for people to deny it.
 
Well at least you understand some of the reasoning that goes behind supporting Ford.

No offense, but my understanding of anything really isn't something for you to judge from your self-promoted high chair of truth.

He probably would not make for the best mayor in terms of the environment or on planning issues (his involvement in the Woodbine Live project begs to differ)

No offense, Miller et al is just as involved with the project - and were instrumental in wringing concessions from the proponents. Interesting how you turned reality into a RF only show though. I can understand your eagerness to do so however.

but at least his is a stragetic vote to prevent any chance of Smitherman or Pantalone winning.

No offense once again, but your previous postings suggested the rationale for supporting him is that he is the BEST candidate for the job, not an exercise in strategic voting. At least be consistent for once.

Rossi's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And you base that on - and you accuse others of slandering RF? It takes someone calling others fraud to really know oneself eh? And RF isn't - considering the claims he made and his behaviour in practice?

We need experienced insiders in municipal politics, a watchdog who'll advocate ways to make the cost of living better for average Torontonians.

If you want better cost of living for the "average" Torontonian, perhaps you should look first into the real estate market and propose doing something about it. And just how has this said "watchdog" done anything to convince others that his plans (his absent plans!) isn't nickle and dime-ing and window dressing - vague promises of "respecting the taxpayer" that is long on emotional manipulation and short on substance?

Entrepreneurs can take on private initiatives towards community-building. We don't necessarily need or want big government to tell us what's best for us, and ram through their agendas at any and all costs.

Oh, like subway building, perhaps? Or let me rephrase - paying for subway building by air rights but at the same time promising communities that 5x density at subway nodes is "bad planning".

If Tory does run I'll reconsider my options, but til then I'd very much appreciate it if the forum would stop insinuating that somehow I'm stupid or crazy for supporting Ford in a myriad of veiled insults. This is a democracy where freedom of choice matters, is it not?

Considering how much you have accused others intended to vote for Smitherman or anyone else to be blind, lying socialists, I don't think you are in any position to talk about democracy or freedom of choice. And please, don't even apologize for that after the fact - it makes you sound as sincere as RF and his various episodes of missteps and apologies after the fact under duress.

AoD
 
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And that's what you're like in UT: metaphorically speaking, you're a loud, obnoxious, tasteless design-builder asserting the right to build your McMansion here. And I'm not even talking about "contemporary design" a la the Beech proposal; I'm talking about hyperthyroid malformed pidgin Georgian/Chateau-style w/ cheesy details and pasty materials. Which, actually, you find plenty of across Toronto...so, I suppose that's what you mean by "average Torontonians"? The ones whom that kind of design serves?

Not to put words in Fresh Start's mouth, er at his finger tips or whatever, but is he necessarily advocating for the building of such Mc-chateaux and so on so much as the right to be able to if one so chooses? Is this about his taste specifically so much as the right to one's own taste whatever it may be? In other words is there a point where a healthy advocacy for heritage preservation or design standards becomes unhealthy when we inch towards crossing over into uncomfortable levels of increasingly dogmatic, restrictive or in fact in some cases prescriptive urban planning? We all want to live in a fabulously designed community, but a soulless one? What is the right balance? At what point does our 'beautiful messy' city start to feel like it is being governed by a massive condo board of 'tasteful' rules? I get the sense that Fresh Start might feel that the existing tension between the two perspectives does create the right balance. There will be losses and failures but there will be successes and achievements which ultimately will prevail and accrue, organically, to push urbanism forwards in the city.

Yeah, but this is Urban Toronto. And like it or not, there's a pretty conspicuous "urban design" undercurrent here. In which case, freedom of choice may hypothetically matter--but it's no excuse for an inappropriate McMansion any old where. "Freedom of choice" only goes so far.

Yet 'Freedom of Choice' makes for a far more engaging and dynamic urban environment, even if for more a more flawed and less perfect one, no? Again, what is the right balance? Fresh Start advocates here for a healthy and respectful dialogue on these issues, and indeed it is a lack of dialogue or free thinking, or a tendency towards this in a UT context, that can create a somewhat stale, pedestrian and blinkered approach to urbanism, no matter how enlightened and progressive we believe it to be. In this sense advocacy in Toronto is somewhat stuck, spinning its wheels in its own dogma - which is sort of my point to begin with - where urbanism is consistently and somewhat forcefully circumscribed within a 'lefty socialist' paradigm. What of other possibilities? Wouldn't Toronto benefit from a little dose of more right wing 'Mayor Daley'-ism every now and again to keep a healthy tension in place? Are we even open to other possibilities?

None of this is commentary on RF, by the way. It seems fairly clear he is not a friend to urbanism, no matter what the perspective.
 
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Tewder:

Is this about his taste specifically so much as the right to one's own taste whatever it may be?

But isn't that exactly what we've got in Toronto (rhetoric notwithstanding, if you think planning is restrictive here, visit Boston or San Fran, god forbid, London, Amsterdam or Paris) - we like to think we have strong rules and regulations but we don't - and it shows in the private realm as much as the public. You bemoan the failures of our public realm - but you seem to be rather generous to the role of the private individual - whose impact - be it in the form of 65s condo or office tower or a 2s detached house or storefront - has a far greater impact on the public realm than patchy sidewalks. Case in point - Bloor Street revitalization and how you can't dress up pig architecture and it's impact on the public realm.

Fresh Start advocates here for a healthy and respectful dialogue on these issues

An advocate of healthy and respectful dialogue does not refer to others as fraud, stupid or blind at the first snap of the finger.

where urbanism is consistently and somewhat forcefully circumscribed within a 'lefty socialist' paradigm.

Actually, don't blame the left for it - the populist right is obsessed with the RF/Sarah Palin type of candidates who see any kind of standards, any kind of expenditure of public money in the urban realm for aesthetics as a waste of money; they conceded the territory of urbanism and urban excellence for ideological reasons at their own choosing. Also, if their prime electorate isn't so hostile about the urban agenda, it wouldn't have provided room for the so called left to monopolize the area. Besides, I don't think most of us really cares too much about unionism or "hard left" ideology of say, class warfare vis-a-vis the more practical concerns of the public realm, for example.

Wouldn't Toronto benefit from a little dose of more right wing 'Mayor Daley'-ism every now and again to keep a healthy tension in place?

Yes and no- Daley is far more autocratic (so much for the democracy part) and his tenure (indeed that of his father as well) is riddled with patronage and corruption. Not sure if that's someone you necessarily wanted to replicate in Toronto. Besides, if you think Toronto is badly governed, one should look at the current and ongoing budget crisis in Chicago in spite of the so called right wing Daley-sim - that's from a jurisdiction with far more flexibility in fiscal tools and governance structure (strong mayor system) to deal with crisis than our city.

AoD
 
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Yes, such long tenures inevitably lead to corruption... but this again is the problem with blinkered perspectives. Chicago has achieved such great things in many respects but this doesn't mean it too may lack some balanced perspective that would serve it well in other ways.

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... and I'm not looking to blame the left. My point is we need the healthy tension of both perspectives. It is the ideal 'middle ground' that results. It is the struggle between them that creates this. The problem arises if we take away the struggle, if we are stuck with one perspective.
 
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here's the Hume article for those who didnt see it yet. Some very colourful yet accurate writing... I agree with Hume, the fact that someone like Ford could even be considered as a potential mayor says a lot about the state of our society. I think people are becoming misguided in their frustration with the pace of change in our world, just like the Tea-party crowd in the US. We can't turn back time and revert to old ways, we have to move with change and be progressive...

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tor...-rob-ford-don-t-you-know-fears-are-not-enough

Hume: Rob Ford, don’t you know fears are not enough?


By Christopher Hume
Urban Issues, Architecture

Rob Ford may be a joke to the rest of the world, but in suburbia he’s anything but funny.

Of all the mayoral candidates, he alone has tapped into a deep well of exurban fear and loathing, which he is exploiting it for all it’s worth. He is the inevitable consequence of a flawed amalgamation process that has left the former municipalities feeling ignored and left out.

That should come as no surprise — they are ignored and left out. Indeed, Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke and the rest were never taken seriously by the city, and for obvious reasons. But before amalgamation, it hardly mattered; they all had their own councils and Mel Lastmans to make them feel good about who they were and where they lived. Though the flaws in the whole suburban phenomenon have long since been revealed, residents have too much invested at this point to feel they have a choice.

While city council focuses on transit, bicycle lanes and green roofs, suburbia suffers though the worst traffic congestion in North America and an emerging economic reality that will leave them, literally, out in the cold.

Though Rob Ford has no platform and is poorly informed, he understands that fear and frustration. It doesn’t matter that he is an inarticulate, self-aggrandizing blowhard; suburbanites love him for it. He personifies anti-urbanism, which makes him a hero.

Change doesn’t come easily even at the best of times, but the kind of upheaval facing suburbia over the next few decades will be truly wrenching. Only Ford and Rocco Rossi, who’s simply too cosmopolitan for the ’burbs, are willing to argue otherwise. Of course, neither is doing voters any favours, but in a mayoral race, claims don’t have to be true and promises need not be kept.

The forces at play go well beyond Toronto, let alone Ford and Rossi. They can bluster all they want, but in the end, it’s those very green roofs, bike lanes and transit that will keep us afloat. Ford is a politician too caught up in his anti-government blather to see beyond his own rhetoric. This is a man who would rather shoot the messenger than become one himself.

Most Ford supporters understand that as mayor, he would be a disaster and an embarrassment. The thing is they don’t care. Such is the extent of their rage, they would be happy to bring down the whole house of cards even though they would suffer the most. Cutting off their nose to spite their place.

In the end, Ford won’t win. But the fact many take him seriously should be a wake-up call to all; he is a symptom of malaise that runs deep throughout Toronto, a city his legions never wanted to be part of in the first place. How ironic that it was one of their heroes, former premier Mike Harris, who inflicted such an ignominious fate upon them.

Yet Ford’s impact would be a whole lot worse; all those misguided suburbanites who think he’s their champion, the one who would stand up for the little guy, couldn’t be more off the mark. It will take a whole lot of government intervention and public spending to turn their ruinously wasteful communities into something remotely sustainable.

It will also require intelligent and honest leadership, not a sideshow barker like Ford to lead Toronto — all of Toronto — into the future. With any luck, the new mayor will be part of the solution, not, like Ford, part of the problem.
 
Ford has the vote of people like my cousin. She grew up and still lives in North York, hates the dirty, noisy and crowded "downtown streets". Loves malls and big box smart centres, because you can drive up to the store you want and you can find it easily. In her words, "you don't have to look for it in among all those other little crappy stores". She never uses public transit and thinks they should widen the DVP. She sees little difference between a strip mall and core street scape. She hates tall buildings because they block the sky. She is 44, a parent and votes. I gave up arguing with her a long time ago.
 
Unenlightened North Americans? Idiocracy comes to mind. Come to think of it, Rob Ford would fit in perfectly in that movie.
 
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Wouldn't Toronto benefit from a little dose of more right wing 'Mayor Daley'-ism every now and again to keep a healthy tension in place? Are we even open to other possibilities?

Except that: say what you will about Mayor Daley, but he's no philistine--at least, where it counts. Indeed, there's a fair argument that if any of the present contenders truly has "Mayor Daley" potential, it's Smitherman--and that's why a lot of the, uh, "Millerite socialist left" fear him even more than Ford: all-too-competent iron fist vs incompetent buffoonery, you know...
 

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