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Honest Ed has a posse said:
None of them were willing to be the first to take the low road. Chow did allude to it in her opening indirectly.

It will be centre stage before long. This campaign will get nasty. The example of George Smitherman and the sheer scummy hubris of Ford will make sure of that. Chow and Tory can't win without calling Ford out on his shit.
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Taking the low road is lying, cheating or using dirty tricks to deceive people. (Think Tory's campaign manager, Nick Kouvalis) Speaking the truth passionately and defending this city from self-serving politicians, is not taking the low road or getting nasty, it's telling it like it is. I want a politician to stand up and speak the truth about Rob Ford, John Tory and all of them. Lay out the good and bad, then let the chips fall where they may but don't give us more of these political games. The reality is, Rob Ford is nasty, so why not tell it like it is, without sugar coating it?

I have no respect for politicians who play political head games.
 
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Angelunatic said:
His opponents should capitalize on his imperfectness( not sure if is a word). Use words like his logic is impaired, his record is broken, Toronto's image under Ford is damaged....if they don't want to bring up the crack scandal they should use language that implies a reference to the scandal. His office has been secretive, his time has been mismanaged, if he can't manage his time effectively, how can he manage the city effectively.
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First and foremost they need to confront him on "the billion dollar saving". Just saying he lied is not enough. Someone needs to deconstruct this phantom billion otherwise if it gets repeated often enough, it will become fact to the casual observers nee voters. Trot out Penachetti's statement on these savings. It will show Rob Ford misstatement of truth.

Second they need to ask RoFo point blank what this "David Miller budget mess" is all about. Where exactly was the mess?

Third they need to remind him that the revenue tools implemented under Miller re land transfer tax and vehicle registration tax are what enable RoFo to keep tax increases to a minimum. It wasn't from the gravy that he supposedly cut! That was just a small contribution.

Fourth speaking of gravy, looking for efficiencies is an ongoing process. It certainly didn't start with Rob Ford. In fact there was an article (probably from Matt Elliot) that listed David Millers savings during his term. It compares very favourably to Rob Ford's. Of course savings measured in conventional ways, not Ford math.

I can't believe the other candidates handlers didn't prepare for this. Everyone on this board knew he was going to go on and on about the billion dollars.

I am beyond disgusted with tonight's debate. Very depressed. My hope is it's still early days.
 
My take, FWIW...

Ford "won" that debate by doing what he always does, lying and evading. None of those 4 people - each of whom I have no doubt would be a better mayor - was totally unable to call him on it. The fact that none had a counter-punch to his known technique (acknowledging this was the first of many debates) was surprising. Ford must have mentioned the billion dollar thing a good dozen times, though he's smart enough now to blame Penachetti. He repeats his talking points (which are lies) with total confidence and no one knocked him off that perch.

Socknacki probably has no shot at winning and I don't even know he'd be my pick but I thought he was the #2. He was the only one who even attempted to call Ford on the billion dollar thing but I'm just like yelling at the TV, "Tell him that cutting revenue is not the same as cutting expenditures!"

Tory, I just don't know. I guess he was #3. He was "statesmanlike" but flat. Everyone else had dumb ideas (e.g. selling hydro to pay for transit) but at least they had some concrete things on the table. He took a couple of good, mild digs at Ford but missed multiple potential knock-out punches and stayed too close to his own message. You'd think Kouvalis could give him some tips on how easy it is to throw Rob off his mark.

Chow was terribly disappointing. I started listening when she was asking Ford her question about transit. Instead of asking him a concrete question about TTC cuts she asked some mealy-mouthed, confusing story about women with strollers not getting on buses. She PERFECTLY teed him up to talk about how he is just the transit king, building subways here there and everywhere. Was it too hard to ask, "how come routes 23, 46 and 94 have reduced service thanks to your TTC operating budget cuts?" She was like that all night though she repeated the circus remarks she's made earlier. Given how she's had the most professional campaign launch so far, it was a terrible performance.

Stintz is over-rehearsed and full of it. She keeps smiling like you can see a coach off-screen telling her to do it every time she pauses.

No one even mentioned crack or the police until Cynthia Mulligan did and Ford immediately dodged the question and went back to his billion dollar stuff. And then they went to commercial. Pathetic. Is it not the easiest question in the world to say, "Shouldn't voters be wary after all the accusations of drug use, hanging out with gangs and drunk driving - not to mention the ongoing release of information showing the police are actively working to lay criminal charges against you?"

Yeah, he could spin about how he hasn't been arrested but at least you put it out there. Instead she asks, "We know you said you're not perfect but people expect more from the chief magistrate..." so he can immediately go "Maybe all these people are perfect but I'm not," as if it's November all over again. I mean, you have to admire how he sticks to his guns but someone with a higher IQ (which is about everyone) should be able to fire back - and they didn't.

If you go on Twitter or whatever you see all these astroturf people talking about how their candidate was the best one etc. By any objective measure they ALL failed to do what they had to and should get back to practicing.
 
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Torontovibe said:
Taking the low road is lying, cheating or using dirty tricks to deceive people. Telling the truth passionately and defending this city from self-serving politicians, is not taking the low road or getting nasty, it's telling the TRUTH! I want a politician to stand up and speak the truth about Rob Ford, John Tory and all of them. Lay out the good and bad, then let the chips fall where they may but don't give us more of these political games. The reality is, Rob Ford is nasty, so why not tell it like it is, without sugar coating it?

I have no respect for politicians who play political head games.
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I disagree. The low road or "hitting below the belt" is a real thing in Canadian politics. While I agree that Ford needs to be attacked about the boozing the crack, the extortion...all of it, There is still a big risk for politicians that go after personal behavior or even attacking an opponents character. It's the parliamentary thing, attacks and insults about character can't be direct.

In Ford's case though it has to be done. He's forced it upon the campaign.
 
Or we can hope for an arrest waaaaay before he can even have a chance of being voted back in. It scares me that it could even be a remote possibility.
 
VTB said:
First and foremost they need to confront him on "the billion dollar saving". Just saying he lied is not enough. Someone needs to deconstruct this phantom billion otherwise if it gets repeated often enough, it will become fact to the casual observers nee voters. Trot out Penachetti's statement on these savings. It will show Rob Ford misstatement of truth.

Second they need to ask RoFo point blank what this "David Miller budget mess" is all about. Where exactly was the mess?

Third they need to remind him that the revenue tools implemented under Miller re land transfer tax and vehicle registration tax are what enable RoFo to keep tax increases to a minimum. It wasn't from the gravy that he supposedly cut! That was just a small contribution.

Fourth speaking of gravy, looking for efficiencies is an ongoing process. It certainly didn't start with Rob Ford. In fact there was an article (probably from Matt Elliot) that listed David Millers savings during his term. It compares very favourably to Rob Ford's. Of course savings measured in conventional ways, not Ford math.

I can't believe the other candidates handlers didn't prepare for this. Everyone on this board knew he was going to go on and on about the billion dollars.

I am beyond disgusted with tonight's debate. Very depressed. My hope is it's still early days.
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Agree with all of this. Ford got off easy and none of the other candidates were particularly impressive. So much repetition of talking points but little substance. I like Soknacki the most but he has no chance. Stintz just seemed so nervous.
 
That was...disheartening.
I am not a fan of Chow, and even if I was, too much of the city isn't ready for her or any left-leaning mayor in this election, maybe even if she's the only alternative to RoFo.
Stintz looked out of her league, and I can't forgive her for the flip on the Scarborough subway, and I think I have lots of company on that.
Soknacki has an immensely long way to go. He could be the most credible of the "conservative" challengers, but he will need a miracle or something like David Miller's broom that only he can benefit from, and still many other things go right for him. Ain't gonna happen.
And that leaves Tory. Unfortunately, the best analogy that I can think of with Tory is Germany in World War 1. In 1914, the Germans knew they needed to beat France, then Russia, but that they couldn't manage both at the same time. In Tory's case, he has to take out Ford, and soon, so he can be the only real alternative to Chow. Ford will ALWAYS have his "Hate the War on Rob Ford" backers, but Tory (and it has to be Tory) needs to take away Ford's softer supporters. Those supporters need to reminded, every day, by Tory, of crack use and public drunkenness and slimy friends and criminal acquaintances, and Tory needs to call Ford on that, specifically, every time. And polite John Tory won't cut it - because Rob Ford has reduced the level of discourse to below the basement, Tory needs to climb down the ladder too. Tory didn't do that today, and hasn't done it yet. Tory is looking weak - that's death to a guy with a washy-washy reputation.
What I watched today was frightening. Ford was allowed to repeat his shtick at will. That's how he won in 2010. If Tory falls away like Barbara Hall, there's just Ford and Chow. Chow is nowhere near as damaged as Smitherman was, but does Chow have the messaniac following that Ford would then have? Can Ford feed on and exaggerate Chow's negatives enough to squeak another one out?
Awfully scary that we now NEED an arrest to save the city...
 
Honestly, a terrible debate, but making political hay out of it this early is just meaningless. And please don't preface your take on the debate with your built in, uninformed political bias "I personally don't like Chow because she's left wing der der der".
 
When they cut away to the pub at the end of the broadcast, was the jackass that kept moving to ensure his face was on camera actually a candidate, or just some random at the bar?
 
Hee.

Mayor Crime Lord ‏@TOMayorFrod 7m

Lots of folks are saying I won the first debate. Remember, that was also the turning point for President Romney. #cityvote #voteTO #TOpoli
 
aghost said:
When they cut away to the pub at the end of the broadcast, was the jackass that kept moving to ensure his face was on camera actually a candidate, or just some random at the bar?
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That's what I was thinking. Also, who was the dirtbag with the marijuana leaf on his sweater?
 
I have a question that might be silly but I really would like to know...when the garbage collection gets/got contracted out, what happens to the union workers?
 
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