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zang said:
"Gambling" of this sort should never be required. Vote for who *you* want to lead, not most likely to win. Instead of strategic voting, push (as many have) for ranked ballots. Contact your MPP about stricter penalties and clarifications between the City of Toronto Act and the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act. Press higher level governments to give power to the law to protect us from another Ford.

This is how you govern against thuggery, dishonesty and corruption. Voting strategically for someone you'd not normally vote for does nothing to forward your own interests as a citizen. Strategic voting makes a mockery of democracy.
Click to expand...

Thanks for agreeing with me. :)

Not many out there see strategic voting for what it really is.
 
One other item re the Fords and Jewishness: once upon a time, Royal York Plaza had an Open Window Bakery. (My own family got its rye w/caraway et al there.)
 
ndawgg said:
It's the Ontario election all over again. The thought of letting the right wing crazy (Hudak/Ford) get elected is terrifying, but the person/group who lines up with my downtown elite gay values (Horwavth/Chow) has tried way too hard to appeal to right-wingers and has both abandoned and disgusted me, leaving me to hold my nose and vote for the Liberals even with all the shit they pulled. And so I feel the same will be happening with my nose being held while checking Tory's name.

We better have ranked ballots for 2018.
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I think people just need to look at "strategic voting" in the right context.

Yes, ideally you should vote your heart and, most definitely yes, we should have ranked ballotting at the municipal level to make that happen.

Provincially it's different (and federally) because you are not directly electing a leader the way you are with mayor. If you live in a riding where the NDP polls 5%, you are most certainly entitled to vote your heart. BUT if you hate Stephen Harper, the NDP poll at 5% and the Libs and PCs are in a dead heat, I do think it's incumbent on you to consider how best to "spend" your vote. I don't think there is EVER shame in someone voting for the person/party in which they believe but you also have to be realistic about the degree to which it will help you achieve certain goals.

Municipally, there is something to be said for "Anyone But Ford" but I really don't think the voting will be close enough, in a pretty-straight 3-way race, to overthink it. If there was a ranked ballot, no Ford would ever win. The only way Doug can win is if he somehow squeaks out, you know 35% vs. 33% vs. 32%. That's highly unlikely. Especially the way turnout is going I'd expect Tory's 39-ish is more like 45-50, Doug's 33-ish is more like 25 and Olivia's 23-ish is more like 30. That's a guess but it's an educated one.

So, if you think Olivia is the best candidate, don't not-vote for her out of fear. But I also wouldn't bash people who see the way the wind is blowing and opt for Tory, as long as it's a choice they're making freely. Principles are important, but we live in the real world so sometimes you have to make little compromises. If voting Tory is the worst one you have to make, life isn't so bad.
 
EagleEye said:
Can you post the text?
Click to expand...

The article's a bit overheated, but even Rob has the right to medical privacy. And it is apparently a crime.

WARMINGTON

Investigation needed into Mt. Sinai privacy breach of Rob Ford's medical records

TORONTO - So who has Mayor Rob Ford’s private medical information?

And what did they do with it?

These are two of the things missing from the Mt. Sinai Hospital news release about the mayor’s compromised health records.

“Two Mt. Sinai staff members who are not part of the patient’s care team have inappropriately accessed his health records,” hospital officials said Thursday in a press release.

Another thing missing from the press release is a call for a police investigation.

All that has been admitted to is that it happened. It is not good enough.

Who were these people? What did they do at the hospital?

Where did they get the information? How did they get it?

Were their cellphones checked? Bank accounts? Associates?

We know the name of just about every other player in the Mayor Ford drama, so why not these two?

“For privacy reasons, I’m not able to provide more than the statement, Joe. Sorry,” said Sally Szuster, Senior Manager, Communications & Public Affairs.

Citing privacy was ironic.

The hospital has also not answered questions about calling police. But the police are exactly who should be brought in on this.

Not just to look into the breach but also why it occurred and if there is more to this.

But Ford’s wife Renata doesn’t think the police are necessary and the “hospital can handle it”.

That said, she was upset it happened.

“Its ridiculous” that it happened and a reason why she said she doesn’t think people should be able to sell or pay for info “because it puts a price on Rob’s head.”

That said, she is grateful for the hard work done by his medical team to help the mayor through his trying medical ordeal but she worries that the net effect will be negative.

“It’s sad,” said Renata. “Its going to make it so people don’t trust going to the hospital. I didn’t know about it. We just heard it on the TV.”

She said she wasn’t sure if her husband was notified before hand but he wasn’t overly concerned at this point.

“Rob just took it in stride. He just said ‘What can you do about it?’”

This is not the first time there has been interest in Ford’s personal information. Fellow patients at a Muskoka rehab facility also reported being asked about health and personal details as well.

However, for this to happen while they are treating the mayor for cancer is serious and should not just be glossed over.

The allegations are just as concerning, perhaps more concerning, as anything Ford has been investigated for.

Whether it’s unconfirmed info on an ITO from the court or an upcoming subpoena to testify, leaks are not new to the Ford story.

Section 72(1) of the Personal Health Information Protection Act, 2004 states: “A person guilty of offence if person, (a) willfully collects, uses or discloses personal health information” could face “fines up to $50,000 for individuals and $250,000 for businesses.”

Certainly the public has a right to know who was interested in the mayor’s personal information and how it was obtained.

A police investigation, and perhaps potential charges, may be the only way this could happen.

Mt. Sinai says “privacy for all of our patients is paramount and we will continue to be diligent in upholding our privacy policies and practices.”

For the public to have confidence in that, Toronto Police need to be called in.
 
Cooper said:
Watching Olivia pile on with Doug drives me nuts, too. But I can't on board with Tory. I like him, but he keeps putting to much stock in market-based solutions for many of our issues. Sure, that's part of the solution, but it's not enough on its own. I think Olivia sees the bigger picture. YMMV.

PS. I won't be broken-hearted if Tory wins. I believe he'll at least give opinions like mine a fair hearing and possibly see some value in them.
Click to expand...

I don't really think she's piling on Tory - she's doing her job, pointing out the flaws in the front-runner's campaign. She's also treating Doug like the non-entity he is. I firmly believe his ceiling is around that awful 27% figure that has been bandied about so much, and I think his actual percentage of votes will be considerably lower, just because the age group who apparently supports him most are notorious non-voters. That leaves the rest of the votes to split between Tory and Chow - 73% - or 70%, allowing a few percent for Ari and other candidates. It's not mathematically possible for Ford to win. She only has so much time to get her message out, part of that needs to be spent on discounting Tory and the rest on her own platform. Pointing out that Doug lies, which everyone with half a functioning brain knows, would just be a waste of time and energy. The link to the article that casita posted earlier is interesting and recommended reading.

http://truthmashup.tumblr.com/post/100049807363/john-tory-progressives-how-polling-skews-elections

I do agree with pretty much everything else though (and you said it all very well). I think she is a smart woman, and I think she is realistic - strongly agree with your big picture comment. The one thing I've noticed lately is how Tory hedges on a lot of questions. Using TIF as funding? What if it doesn't work, what is the backup plan? "I don't need a backup plan, I'm confident TIF will work." Even though all kinds of people say it won't, for a project of this magnitude? Um...okay. What is your plan for affordable housing? Childcare? "Don't have numbers because I don't want to promise anything I might not deliver." Awesome! He can do nothing and then fall back on saying he didn't promise it. And there are a lot more examples.

I just think it's maybe a little wrong-minded to focus so much on the style of the campaigning (where Olivia has been weaker than expected, admittedly), and to use that over the content of the platforms, where she is much stronger.

All that said, I do think there could much worse things to happen than Tory winning. I'm not firmly anti-Tory, I just like Chow's vision a lot more. I think she's at a disadvantage in this campaign, because confrontation is not her default setting.

zang said:
"Gambling" of this sort should never be required. Vote for who *you* want to lead, not most likely to win. Instead of strategic voting, push (as many have) for ranked ballots. Contact your MPP about stricter penalties and clarifications between the City of Toronto Act and the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act. Press higher level governments to give power to the law to protect us from another Ford.

This is how you govern against thuggery, dishonesty and corruption. Voting strategically for someone you'd not normally vote for does nothing to forward your own interests as a citizen. Strategic voting makes a mockery of democracy.
Click to expand...

Thank you, agreed, 100%. There are a couple of downsides to strategic voting. One, you are settling for mediocrity, rather than what you really want. Two, you can be tricked into voting strategically by buying into a narrative that says you should, in order to keep the bogeyman away. Remember that we're dealing with Kouvalis, here. I firmly believe he's capable of swaying the narrative to make this seem the case, when it's not.
 
While I'm not down with Rob's hospital having a breach, were we as upset when Rohab stuff came out, or did that come from other patients? I absolutely don't want any med info from either type of treatment centre/hospital to be released.
 
I agree with Vintage Punk. If anything, Olivia Chow was too slow to address Tory and the campaign was quite dismissive, since polls at the time showed she was the best positioned to beat Ford. All through the spring and summer the line I'd often hear was basically "John Tory is a North Toronto elitist who can't resonate with working class voters, immigrants and people in Scarborough and Etobicoke. Voters in Ford Nation would prefer the populist Olivia to the elitist Tory."
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I think people just need to look at "strategic voting" in the right context.

Yes, ideally you should vote your heart and, most definitely yes, we should have ranked ballotting at the municipal level to make that happen.

Provincially it's different (and federally) because you are not directly electing a leader the way you are with mayor. If you live in a riding where the NDP polls 5%, you are most certainly entitled to vote your heart. BUT if you hate Stephen Harper, the NDP poll at 5% and the Libs and PCs are in a dead heat, I do think it's incumbent on you to consider how best to "spend" your vote. I don't think there is EVER shame in someone voting for the person/party in which they believe but you also have to be realistic about the degree to which it will help you achieve certain goals.

Municipally, there is something to be said for "Anyone But Ford" but I really don't think the voting will be close enough, in a pretty-straight 3-way race, to overthink it. If there was a ranked ballot, no Ford would ever win. The only way Doug can win is if he somehow squeaks out, you know 35% vs. 33% vs. 32%. That's highly unlikely. Especially the way turnout is going I'd expect Tory's 39-ish is more like 45-50, Doug's 33-ish is more like 25 and Olivia's 23-ish is more like 30. That's a guess but it's an educated one.

So, if you think Olivia is the best candidate, don't not-vote for her out of fear. But I also wouldn't bash people who see the way the wind is blowing and opt for Tory, as long as it's a choice they're making freely. Principles are important, but we live in the real world so sometimes you have to make little compromises. If voting Tory is the worst one you have to make, life isn't so bad.
Click to expand...

I can get this but Olivia deserves losing a good chunk of support for letting Doug get away with his crap. It's a double edge sword.
 
DeathSilver said:
Olivia should be ashamed as a progressive to let a lying right wing nutjob get away with everything while picking on a more moderate candidate. I would have voted for her if she did not play did card.
Click to expand...

So you'd rather vote for the guy who donated to both Fords in 2010, who went to their Mom's house to beg for an endorsement in 2003, and who regularly defended the Fords on his radio program right up until the time he could no longer do so with a straight face?

There's a pretty simple explanation for why Tory donated to the Fords and defended them. And it wasn't because he was "confused" or "fooled" by them.
 
Crazy said:
So you'd rather vote for the guy who donated to both Fords in 2010, who went to their Mom's house to beg for an endorsement in 2003, and who regularly defended the Fords on his radio program right up until the time he could no longer do so with a straight face?

There's a pretty simple explanation for why Tory donated to the Fords and defended them. And it wasn't because he was "confused" or "fooled" by them.
Click to expand...

Sure beats teaming up with the right wing sidekick of a crack smoking drunk on live TV for political gain 10 days before the election.
 
DeathSilver said:
And now she lets a loud mouth bully get away with pretty much anything. Tells you volume about her integrity.
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I don't think it says anything about her integrity, at all. Would it be gratifying to me, personally, to see her go after Doug? Sure. I would also like to see small children kick him in the shins in the streets too, but it's not going to happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't fix things. What will fix things by turfing the idiot, and having a mayor that will actually point the city in the right direction. I don't need my revenge fantasies fulfilled for that to happen.
 
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