[Rainforest]

This is the nub of the issue. Sometimes politicians define the problem, sometimes the problem emerges and they can have to face it.

I won't digress too far from this thread, but - the Relief Line is a rock in the bay that any new government will face. I can agree that Brown will be moderately pro-transit.... but measured in his spending. When the projects are lined up in priority, the Relief Line will force its way to the top - out of necessity, not out of platform design. The bills for the Line 2 extension will come in - again, he won't oppose this project - and the Relief Line will take a huge bite out of what's available. I would bet he will push back hard on the premise of DRL Long, preferring to build only the first leg and leave the next leg for a decade (a huge error in my view, and a perpetuation of the "stub building" mentality that has not served Toronto well.....but typical Tory approach to infrastructure ).

This leaves him to make plenty of encouraging sounds about being committed to Sheppard, but passing the bill to the future.

- Paul

Yeah, that's how I would approach that if I was in Mr. Brown's shoes. Undertake an early design of DRL Long to Sheppard, or even DRL Extra Long into Markham, and actually fund it from downtown up to Danforth or to Eglinton.

Of course we don't know what their strategists actually think. We can fully expect them to do something stupid, until they prove otherwise.

 

[lead82]

What makes you so certain that the PC s will cancel the western and eastern extensions of the Crosstown? If anything, they'll propose grade-separating the whole thing from UTSC to the airport, as it should have been from Day One. If the PCs are going to make any breakthroughs in the 416, it'll most likely be through the areas this line would route through i.e. Scarborough and Etobicoke. They may also come up with a more sensible solution to extending the Bloor-Danforth eastward than the current one-stop fiasco.

Back to the thread topic, a feasible Sheppard Line from Downsview to Agincourt in the shorter term would not be such a bad thing as the need for a rapid way to connect the Spadina Line to the Yonge Line north of the 401 still exists and needs to be addressed.

I'm speculating but not certain. From the early consultations the LRT west extension was not popular in Etobicoke as the wealthy PC votes don't take transit. The east extension was supposed to be funded within same funding as SCC extension but everyone knows the 1 stop extension will eat all available funds and more.

As for Sheppard, I just don't see the Tories committing new money for it. Scarborough will he happy with SCC extension so no need for more lines into Scarborough. While it may make Sheppard line more useful, it comes at a huge cost. Digging west to Sheppard West will be pricey over the West Don. On the east side an extension under 404 will also be expensive. They would need probably $6B for those extensions. It just doesn't make financial sense and not enough votes to get. I see Yonge north as a done deal in next round. It has a lot of political support, especially because Richmond Hill will not get improved GO train service beyond perhaps a few more peak period trains. They won't get 2WAD RER service in our lifetime likely. So subway to Richmond Hill will buy votes in Vaughan/Thornhill/Markham and Richmond Hill. It's a huge political win. Sure it will cost $6B but it buys votes in 4-5 ridings.

Next spring will be interesting.

 

[OneCity]

As for Sheppard, I just don't see the Tories committing new money for it. Scarborough will he happy with SCC extension so no need for more lines into Scarborough.

Fully disagree. From most of the feedback I receive is that this lone stop is hardly going to make the populace content in anyway, shape or form. The SSE push was just Political door opening to the voice for 25% population of the City. Sheppard will be very much exploited by Politicians very soon, and already is if you look at the top two candidates in our previous election. Its currently in preliminary studies and will be the next polarizing chaos at council, only the transfer LRT option will be long dead this time around.

Scarborough's large population, and various unique needs thru-out, provide a lot of opportunity for Politicians to exploit. In addition to strong support for Sheppard support, the Eglinton East LRT is heavily supported in many areas, the Malvern situation isnt even being discussed for how big of an issue this will soon be as is going to be a major talking point in the coming years and will get exploited as well.

What actually gets funded or built is unknown, but the process of building anything is too long to begin with to be taking further rest. To think the SSE is a point of pause in Scarborough will be another key mistake that will come back to hurt the City again as tensions increase. The last 10 years should be the hint this idea might not be a good one. Fully understanding there are other areas of the City facing neglect, and growth challenges off past investment, (many Scarborough residents are already ticked from the lack and quality of legacy investments) its clear the City is so far behind in many areas and this could just the beginning of Political strife, if they don't keep plugging forward non stop thru-out the entire City in the coming decades.

 

[sixrings]

Yes. More lines to nowhere to please scarboroughs self esteem problem.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does the Sheppard Subway Extension(s) even have much weight/backing though? Would a complete Finch LRT (Line 6) Crosstown Line from Pearson to UTSC be effective? Then ignore Line 4 and pretend it doesn't exist (probably not cost effective)?

 

[OneCity]

Does the Sheppard Subway Extension(s) even have much weight/backing though? Would a complete Finch LRT (Line 6) Crosstown Line from Pearson to UTSC be effective? Then ignore Line 4 and pretend it doesn't exist (probably not cost effective)?

If we had built around that idea from the start yes it would make absolute sense. But we are adding density to areas like Vic Park and Kennedy-Agincourt (where the subway should drop down and cut thru to SCC) which will require a transit stops and having the existing subway stub and now the extension to Scarborough Centre only makes the idea virtually impossible Politically. I personally like the Finch line you propose but I think trying to get cute with any other plan will only cause the City more strife in the long run. The savings don't equal the headaches and the long term plan will be great if we just keep moving.

The plan they are somewhat moving forward with today could possibly be complete in the next 50 years is very good and really only needs minor alterations. In the greater scheme of the long term plan the possible savings from are not significant and not worth the politics or delays. I hope we prioritize completion of the Sheppard loop with the DRL long soon after the DRL short and SSE. Connect the Eglinton East LRT through Malvern and meeting up of on Sheppard where the subway ends. This is in addition to the fact Lawrence and Finch could be dedicated Bus in the East which will likely feed the GO RER/Smarttrack, Ellesmere would be dedicated Bus through Hwy#2 in Durham and Lakeshore East GO will be electrified and run more frequent service. A 3rd phase in 25-50 years could be extending an LRT line from SCC through Malvern TC and into Pickering

Thats a solid long term plan for the East. Just build it

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Does the Sheppard Subway Extension(s) even have much weight/backing though? Would a complete Finch LRT (Line 6) Crosstown Line from Pearson to UTSC be effective? Then ignore Line 4 and pretend it doesn't exist (probably not cost effective)?

No. The most significant political commitment it's gotten recently was a motion passed on Council, and supported by Tory, to explore feasibility of extending the line at some point after 2031. Obviously a motion that was designed to be a completely inconsequential gesture.

Compare this to Crosstown West, Crosstown East, Relief Line Short and Waterfront transit, all of whom all rapidly progressing, and should be fully funded if the provincial government matches the federal infrastructure grant from several months ago (Should be about $12.5 Billion funding in total).

Yonge North and Relief Line Long, while unfunded, have had the political and financial support to rapidly push those two projects beyond the planning phases.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yes. More lines to nowhere to please scarboroughs self esteem problem.

Populism is a bitch. Usually arises from ignoring that population's needs for decades.

 

[sixrings]

Populism is a bitch. Usually arises from ignoring that population's needs for decades.

That population was more than content buying 2 car garages with the sole intent to drive until they realized transit affects their property values. We can rewrite history but the suburbs are made up of people who once lived in the city, thought it became grungy and moved to the suburbs. Now that the burbs have become a wasteland and these suburbanites missed their memo to sell and move back they are acting as if it's an attack on the poor.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That population was more than content buying 2 car garages with the sole intent to drive until they realized transit affects their property values. We can rewrite history but the suburbs are made up of people who once lived in the city, thought it became grungy and moved to the suburbs. Now that the burbs have become a wasteland and these suburbanites missed their memo to sell and move back they are acting as if it's an attack on the poor.

If you want the Sheppard Subway extension to be built, your inflammatory language is a great way to see it happen.

 

[kEiThZ]

That population was more than content buying 2 car garages with the sole intent to drive until they realized transit affects their property values.

Keep beating that drum. See if it works out for you in the next few decades.

We can rewrite history but the suburbs are made up of people who once lived in the city, thought it became grungy and moved to the suburbs.

Blows me away that people think Scarborough is full of middle class white suburbanites who fled the downtown core. It's amazing that this narrative persists. I always wonder whether people who say this have set foot in Scarborough. Ever.

Pretty damn clear from the demographics that a substantial portion of Scarborough, are immigrants, with the next largest group being long time residents. There's no way the borough could reach half a million with most of them consisting of people who moved from downtown to the burbs.

In the decade and a half of growing up in Scarborough, I have literally never met a single person who lived downtown and then moved to Scarborough. Not one. I have however, met a ton of people who wished they could afford homes in the core. And lots of immigrant families who moved there because that's where work was (in the case of one of my parents) or that's where their social network (other immigrants, or family and friends) was.

It's nonsense like this that makes me wonder if any of you actually talk to people outside this forum, or even outside the internet. Let me know if you want to do it someday. I'll subsidize your token out to Scarborough. You can come talk to all my neighbours and explain to them why they are ridiculous elitists for moving from Sri Lanka to Scarborough.

Maybe you can tell my mid-60s mother who rides the TTC everyday for 1.5 hrs to her downtown job how ignorant she was for getting a home close to her husband's workplace, so that the family could get by without babysitters on a combined family income of $50k in the 90s.

Now that the burbs have become a wasteland and these suburbanites missed their memo to sell and move back they are acting as if it's an attack on the poor.

And here we can all see evidence of why the inner suburbanites (not just in Scarborough) keep voting for Ford and Tory. Your contempt is palpable.

I am sure shitting on people will win more converts for the cause.

 

[kEiThZ]

If you want the Sheppard Subway extension to be built, your inflammatory language is a great way to see it happen.

I am glad he put it out there. It's how he really feels.

And now you know why lots of Scarborough (and other inner suburban) residents fall for populist rhetoric from the right. It's really unfortunate. But those are the only politicians actually speaking to their frustrations. On the other side of the spectrum are people like sixrings who are astoundingly out of touch with reality for the average voter who lives in the inner suburbs, and even have outright contempt for them.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is a suburban subway proposal that would be popular in Scarborough and Downtown.

I have literally never heard a single family member or friend from Scarborough mention the DRL. The only ones that ever do are people I know who live downtown.

The marketing on this has been terrible....when it comes to the average Joe. Most of the push has been on LRT vs. subway. Very little discussion and coverage on the DRL. Particularly if you look at the mainstream media.

So I really am curious to see which way the tories go. On one hand, Hudak actually had the DRL in his platform the last time around. On the other hand, if you look at the raw politics of it (and note that I am not saying this a good idea....I think transit planning should be done by a regional bureaucratic agency), the DRL would be super expensive and no real electoral payoff compared to Sheppard and Yonge North.

DRL Long, is I think, just out of the question. The cost would be incredible. The timeline to deliver very long (spanning at least 2 full terms) And there's no way either the Liberals or the Tories will deliver that in the next decade.

I utterly abhor this Liberal government. But they probably are the only chance of shovels in the ground for the DRL in the next half decade.

 

[sixrings]

I am glad he put it out there. It's how he really feels.

And now you know why lots of Scarborough (and other inner suburban) residents fall for populist rhetoric from the right. It's really unfortunate. But those are the only politicians actually speaking to their frustrations. On the other side of the spectrum are people like sixrings who are astoundingly out of touch with reality for the average voter who lives in the inner suburbs, and even have outright contempt for them.

lived in scarborough for 20 years and still visit family and friends from there. I'm not out of touch at all. People from Scarborough feel left behind and they wine and complain for fancy things that they have no desire to pay added taxes for and there is no density to support. The fact that my inflammatory language may lead to those pushing even more for Subways to nowhere proves the point that there is no rational in these decisions but simply emotions. I have no shame in saying that sometimes I do miss my double garage scarborough house with a pool in the backyard. Then I remember theres a Subway literally outside my door. Sure my kids will have to share a bunk bed but I wont have to be a taxi driver to them getting around the city because everything is so dang far away. There is pluses and minuses of living everywhere. The plus of living in scarborough is that you get three times the house as my area for the same price. The minus is that there is no real rapid transit in site. But everyone knows those pluses and minuses when making their home decision. People are just pissed with their investment choices and expecting the rest of the city to pay for it. Ever hear you cant have your cake and eat it to? Of course not.... youre from scarborough.

 

[Tuck]

Not really on-topic but I'll reply anyways:

Hey, I was wondering what do you think of my map?

Looks good, though I'm not sure Finch East is more realistic than something happening on Sheppard. And Toronto Zoo doesn't seem like its important enough to be a major interchange station.

The other thread gets activity when people post new maps, so yes you should post it there.

Hi TigerMaster! I've read many posts from you!!! I'm your fan!

Lol aww