kali
Active Member
Guess there's not much "walk-in traffic" at Union, King, or St. Andrew Stations, being so "close" to the Gardiner Expressway in comparison.
He preempted that if you read closely lol
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Guess there's not much "walk-in traffic" at Union, King, or St. Andrew Stations, being so "close" to the Gardiner Expressway in comparison.
I just find it amusing after how many condos went up around the Sheppard Line, ridership remained flat lined after 18 years of opening. The system ridership has been growing and this line has been trap in year 2002. The problem is these people are likely just taking it once or twice a week.
Unless TTC data is wrong, the line had a ridership of 47-50k for the last decade: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp
I think this is getting built whether we like it or not. Especially if they manage to get the Ontario Line and Eglinton West extensions off before 2031. It will go to Sheppard and McCowan too, might as well get full use if that is going to be a major bus terminal. We need to move on from the Scarborough debate for good, and full completion would do that. We need to be focusing on Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Warden, Markham Rd, East Bayfront and Waterfront West/Exhibition extensions in the coming future.
Wouldn't the Scarborough debate just move it's goalposts accordingly? There is a lot of Scarborough out there, it's a big place.I think this is getting built whether we like it or not. Especially if they manage to get the Ontario Line and Eglinton West extensions off before 2031. It will go to Sheppard and McCowan too, might as well get full use if that is going to be a major bus terminal. We need to move on from the Scarborough debate for good, and full completion would do that. We need to be focusing on Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Warden, Markham Rd, East Bayfront and Waterfront West/Exhibition extensions in the coming future.
Have to understand who are living in those condos. They either work/go to school outside of downtown (905s), or they don't work and drive everywhere because their social life is not downtown or places easily accessible by current transit routes.Walk-in traffic doesn't generate high enough ridership, the residents along the Sheppard corridor have their mode share split with car (Hwy-401 is next door) still, and despite all the condos that have gone up, actual trip generation have remained low since none of these condos have any office or employment component to generate outside trips.
A two-station extension to Victoria Park is interesting because this would intercept the Victoria Park bus, and the Consumers area has many offices and employment that would generate trips from outside the corridor.
When Sheppard was originally proposed (along with other suburban routes), the projection was that major business and residential growth would occur in these corridors, justifying the need for a subway.
That didn't happen. Business and residential development continued to favour the downtown core, making the Sheppard Line unnecessary.
Even if they built more condos, the lack of commercial uses along this corridor would be an issue as far as ridership is concerned.
The Problem is that they were basing the projections based off what happened to North York Center, where after finishing the subway to Finch, a boom of Urban Development happened.
Problem is unlike the Yonge Line, the Sheppard Line doesn't go anywhere, and the fact that you have to make a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge makes the area a lot less appealing for development.
It was originally envisioned to be. North York Centre supports a full Yonge Line, they just needed Sheppard to support half of one, but development moved elsewhere in the city after Amalgamation.They should have built multiple Liberty Villages with the same density sandwiched between Sheppard and the 401 which would have had the selling point of being close to the subway and the 401.
With a Sheppard built up to look like Yonge St. in North York.
They weren't actually favoring the downtown core at the time, quite the opposite. North York Centre was built because people saw it as a way to get away from the crowded downtown core. Once Sheppard was built, development didn't move back Downtown, it moved to Eglinton Yonge, Davisville, and along Line 2. It would take another 5-10 years for developers to begin redeveloping mass areas of Downtown.When Sheppard was originally proposed (along with other suburban routes), the projection was that major business and residential growth would occur in these corridors, justifying the need for a subway.
That didn't happen. Business and residential development continued to favour the downtown core, making the Sheppard Line unnecessary.
Even if they built more condos, the lack of commercial uses along this corridor would be an issue as far as ridership is concerned.
It wasn't that, it was the fact that other subway corridors were seemingly just as viable as North York Centre's corridor for redevelopment. The other issue was zoning; North York lost control of their zoning policies and rezoning Sheppard for high density was less of a priority for the city.The Problem is that they were basing the projections based off what happened to North York Center, where after finishing the subway to Finch, a boom of Urban Development happened. Problem is unlike the Yonge Line, the Sheppard Line doesn't go anywhere, and the fact that you have to make a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge makes the area a lot less appealing for development.
They weren't actually favoring the downtown core at the time, quite the opposite. North York Centre was built because people saw it as a way to get away from the crowded downtown core. Once Sheppard was built, development didn't move back Downtown, it moved to Eglinton Yonge, Davisville, and along Line 2. It would take another 5-10 years for developers to begin redeveloping mass areas of Downtown.
One final issue is the walkability of Sheppard; neither North York nor Toronto rebuilt Sheppard avenue along the subway corridor to support dense walkable environments. With no master plan, the corridor is less desirable to developers these days.
North York Centre station was a rough-in too, yet Yonge North got its development. Bessarion was supposed to be a rough-in but was seen to have better development potential due to open land.The lack of a Willowdale station really says everything about how serious the city was in densifying Sheppard at the time. In every urban structure and development sense it would have been far more useful than Bessarion.
Because the City was already amalgamated and priorities changed. North York City Centre developed heavily throughout the 90s when it was its own city, got a new subway station, and was seen as likely to continue during Sheppard's planning. Just because construction only really started occurring in 1995 doesn't mean planning for the line didn't go back any farther. The line was envisioned in 1985, back when North York Centre's construction efforts were starting to take off.That isn't true at all.
Downtown growth has outstripped these areas for decades, and by a very wide margin.
Planners already knew this is how things would unfold when Sheppard was selected as the line to build.
The same reason they used to rebuild Yonge north of Sheppard avenue — Because they wanted to. They wanted to build a walkable community and they did. These things aren't that complicated.Why would they be rebuilt? They're not dense, walkable environments. Almost the entire line runs through suburban, single family home neighbourhoods and park land.