[M II A II R II K]

And would provide Durham with an uptown option unlike the GO.

 

[north-of-anything]

How/where would the Sheppard line go above ground, though, and what routes would it follow to the west/east?

 

[Rainforest]

How/where would the Sheppard line go above ground, though, and what routes would it follow to the west/east?

I think the options for above ground are mostly in the 401 corridor, and using that corridor makes sense for the outer sections only. We don't want to lose the density opportunities in the middle.

In the west, I'd suggest going mostly underground until Allen Rd; the West Don crossing may be on a bridge though because the valley is very deep. After connecting to Line 1 Sheppard West station, the line can turn south and continue at the surface level from Sheppard to Wilson. There is still unused space on the west side of Allen Rd to add a pair of tracks on surface, as well as to expand the Downsview subway yard, or build a new yard for the mid capacity (Ontario Line type) rolling stock.

Then the line would continue underground under Wilson till the Weston Rd / Albion Rd interchange. After that, the line can switch to the 401 / 409 corridor running at/above ground. If Pearson is the destination, then it can run there above ground entirely. If we want the whole line or a branch to continue into Brampton, then it will need to go underground again at some point.

In the east, the line would continue under Sheppard until at least the Agincourt GO station. Then it needs to connect to SSE either at McCowan & Sheppard or at Scarborough Centre, and then serve the Centennial College Progress campus; that section of the route is up to debate.

East of the Centennial campus, the line would switch to the 401 corridor at/above ground. Maybe, not even divert to serve UTSC directly, but instead have a station over 401 & Morningside connecting to the LRT that will run on Morningside and serve UTSC. And then it can continue in the 401 corridor all the way to Pickering GO Stn.

 

[afransen]

For eastwards, you could likely have it surface after the 404 in the median of Sheppard and continue either in the median or on the north side to Agincourt GO, then use the rail ROW and the plaza on NW corner of Brimley and Sheppard to turn south down Brimley then curve into STC along old SRT row through McCowan then to Ellesmere (alternately could follow rail corridor and similarly turn down McCowan). Follow Ellesmere to UTSC and on to the 401, where it could probably be run at grade or maybe trenched with some property acquisition to Pickering GO/Pickering Town Centre, if it makes sense to go so far. About 24 km east (14 km if you stop at UTSC).

For West, would likely make sense to continue underground and surface west of Brentwood Ave on the north side of Sheppard, bridge across the valley, run elevated on Sheppard until Sheppard West, then up to Downsview Park skip over to Keele and turn south down Keele to Wilson, west on Wilson to Sheridan Mall. Continue down Wilson onto Walsh, then cross the Humber to Rexdale Blvd. Turn down the ROW to meet up with Etobicoke North GO, and continue on to either Renforth (connect with Eglinton Crosstown and Mississauga Transitway) or whatever transit hub GTAA and Metrolinx land on. That would be 22 km west and provide good connection with Kitchener (to Brampton, etc.), Stouffville, Lakeshore East and Barrie. Mississauga Transitway could eventually be upgraded/replaced with an extension to MCC (another 8 km) or to Erindale GO (another 12 km) to connect with the Milton line.

Crazy 46 km extension, but would provide a very useful cross-town link. It would be mostly above grade. Probably on the order of $12B -$15B as a light metro. If it is the same technology as Ontario Line, it opens some interesting possibilities if OL is extended the 6km to Sheppard

 

[JSF-1]

Random thing I found doing some digging for a slightly related project of mine. Apparently the idea of rapid trainsit running alongside the 401 to Durham isn't all that new. According to this map, during the Network 2011 days there was a plan (or idea at least) of a GO line (or regional equivalent) running between Durham and STC via the 401 and Kingston Road corridors.

 

[Coolstar]

Random thing I found doing some digging for a slightly related project of mine. Apparently the idea of rapid trainsit running alongside the 401 to Durham isn't all that new. According to this map, during the Network 2011 days there was a plan (or idea at least) of a GO line (or regional equivalent) running between Durham and STC via the 401 and Kingston Road corridors.View attachment 270651

Even earlier than that, one of the GO-ALRT lines would've used the Finch Hydro Corridor as well as the 401 corridor and would've provided headways as low as 2 minutes using fully automated trains.

 

[Steve X]

Random thing I found doing some digging for a slightly related project of mine. Apparently the idea of rapid trainsit running alongside the 401 to Durham isn't all that new. According to this map, during the Network 2011 days there was a plan (or idea at least) of a GO line (or regional equivalent) running between Durham and STC via the 401 and Kingston Road corridors.View attachment 270651

Just keep in mind that the 401 collector/express system doesn't extend past Neilson at the time this map is published

 

[slapped_chicken]

Ah how I wish that ALRT idea had come to fruition.

I think the options for above ground are mostly in the 401 corridor, and using that corridor makes sense for the outer sections only. We don't want to lose the density opportunities in the middle.

In the west, I'd suggest going mostly underground until Allen Rd; the West Don crossing may be on a bridge though because the valley is very deep. After connecting to Line 1 Sheppard West station, the line can turn south and continue at the surface level from Sheppard to Wilson.

Within Toronto there is a lot of opportunity to densify corridors like Sheppard or Wilson. Outside of Toronto it would likely be more oriented to commuters, and at some point one would expect density to find a place around those outer stations. Considering the branches to the west, if there is a branch to DT Brampton, we would have to choose a route that does not compete with the Kitchener RER (which I am not sure of a route). A Mississauga branch could follow highway corridors from YYZ all the way to Square One and potentially beyond. In the east, if we intend to extend the line beyond Pickering, it would compete with the Lakeshore RER so it may be worthwhile to use the hydro corridor or something north. Would also set it up to have a branch to the "Pickering Airport" when it gets built in the year 2076

 

[Rainforest]

Within Toronto there is a lot of opportunity to densify corridors like Sheppard or Wilson. Outside of Toronto it would likely be more oriented to commuters, and at some point one would expect density to find a place around those outer stations. Considering the branches to the west, if there is a branch to DT Brampton, we would have to choose a route that does not compete with the Kitchener RER (which I am not sure of a route). A Mississauga branch could follow highway corridors from YYZ all the way to Square One and potentially beyond. In the east, if we intend to extend the line beyond Pickering, it would compete with the Lakeshore RER so it may be worthwhile to use the hydro corridor or something north. Would also set it up to have a branch to the "Pickering Airport" when it gets built in the year 2076

In the east, I didn't even think of goind beyond Pickering. But if the Pickering Airport happens, maybe the line could end there. Otherwise I wouldn't even consider crossing the 416 eastern border, but there is some value in connecting the Sheppard Line to Lakeshore East and that maybe easier to do at Pickering Stn than at Rouge Hill.

Multiple options exist in the west. The simplest option is to connect to the Kitchener RER at Etobicoke North, and then terminate the Sheppard line at Pearson without adding any branches. If the line goes to Brampton, then it can still be a single route, first going to Pearson and then making a sharp turn right and continuing north-west along Bramalea or Dixie, connecting to the Steeles, Queen, Williams, Bovaird local routes. The latter option certainly won't be cheap and I am not sure how many decades will pass before such a route becomes viable.

Not sure about the Mississauga branch; an Eglintion LRT extension into Mississauga seems more likely.

 

[afransen]

I think there's more merit to continuing into Mississauga to connect with Milton line. Brampton would already be connected with Kitchener Line. Just funnel routes into Brampton, Bramalea and Malton GO and provide frequent service to connect at Etobicoke North, since Kitchener line will be getting frequent service. It is pretty redundant run a different technology to Brampton on a different ROW. Maybe GO Expansion gets done with the same technology and the branch just uses the Kitchener line?

If you're extending the Eglinton LRT to Mississauga, might as well extend this line if both lines would be extending from Renforth/Pearson.

 

[slapped_chicken]

Yes, the more I think about it, the Brampton branch would compete a bit too much with Kitchener line and it is probably simpler to have no Brampton branch at all, requiring Line 4 commuters to transfer to the Kitchener RER to go further. Seems sensible; would work for a while until Kitchener RER becomes overloaded, which I highly doubt will happen in 100 years lol... Also, about technology, I'm guessing GO is going to use new trains just as wide as the current (whereas our hypothetical Line 4 is using narrower trains more akin to light metro), so probably couldn't track share without magic

Ooops, I forgot about Line 5. The extension to Square one may be redundant since Line 5 is eventually going to link Mississauga centre to the airport as well. However if we decide to extend it further west into the GTA (beyond sauga) it would be a sensible stop along the line. It would offer real, high capacity rapid transit that is completely grade separated and fast to Mississauga centre, and while it's not the direct link to downtown (*sad milton train noises*), hopefully the transfer situation at YYZ is beautiful enough to make it feasible to go north/east on Line 4 then switch to KI line/UP line to get DT in under 45 minutes.

Side question, is UP getting replaced by the Kitchener RER? I would love to see it stay, and have the corridor see 7.5 minute or less headways between downtown and YYZ, oh boi, that would basically be relief line west resurrected right there

 

[sixrings]

When did this become the fantasy thread?

 

[Rainforest]

I think there's more merit to continuing into Mississauga to connect with Milton line. Brampton would already be connected with Kitchener Line. Just funnel routes into Brampton, Bramalea and Malton GO and provide frequent service to connect at Etobicoke North, since Kitchener line will be getting frequent service. It is pretty redundant run a different technology to Brampton on a different ROW.

Fair enough; maybe the connection at Etobicoke North will serve all trip variations. Kitchener RER going to downtown and to Brampton, the new "Sheppard" extension going to Pearson and North York.

Maybe GO Expansion gets done with the same technology and the branch just uses the Kitchener line?

I think the GO expansion will use same kind of wide trains they are using today, just single-level with faster boarding. Still way too bulky for the "Sheppard" extension if we hope to ever build it for a reasonable cost.

If you're extending the Eglinton LRT to Mississauga, might as well extend this line if both lines would be extending from Renforth/Pearson.

If both lines reached the Renforth hub at the same time, then the "Sheppard" line could take over and get extended further into Mississauga. But as it stands, Eglinton LRT will likely reach Renforth decades sooner than the fantasy "Sheppard" extension.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Anything to the west beyond Sheppard West Stn and to the east beyond McCowan would be pure fantasy.

 

[Rainforest]

Side question, is UP getting replaced by the Kitchener RER? I would love to see it stay, and have the corridor see 7.5 minute or less headways between downtown and YYZ, oh boi, that would basically be relief line west resurrected right there

UP is an odd duck, it was built as such. The Pearson platform is tiny and cannot serve long trains, and the Pearson spur makes a tight curve just before it joins the Kitchener mainline. As a result, they have to keep the UP price high and not too attractive for everyday commuters. Otherwise the commuters would swarm the UP trains; Metrolinx is unable to run longer trains on this route.

So, looks like UP does not fit into any expansion plans unless Metrolinx decides to rebuild the spur.