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- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
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T3G
Senior Member
Building subways just because the people think they are too good for LRT hardly strikes me as being a wise use of public funds. Transit planning should be done with care to the existing and projected population density, building the highest order transit everyone is extremely fiscally unwise. And since it's not a new line, but an extension of a pre-existing one, that means you'd have to run the large sized TTC stock deep into suburbia. And that can look one of several ways:
a) to avoid wasting money, don't run every train into suburbia - and now you have an unattractive frequency. Why would you wait 10, 15 minutes for a subway train for a local journey when you can drive in much less time?
b) to avoid wasting money, you run trains of various lengths, which would be an operational nightmare and shorter trains would probably not be sufficient in the denser parts of the line closer to Yonge Street
c) to avoid operational complexity or unattractive frequencies, you run the full service into suburbia, which would be a waste of money
And because the experience with subway expansion so far is that they insist on running it underground to pander to the NIMBYs, that means the price tag would be astronomical for that, too.
If the suburbs want subways, they should pay for it themselves entirely out of their own pockets. Why must the entire rest of the province fund expensive subway projects to sprawling suburbs just because the people living there think they are too good for LRTs? How many new GO bus lines, new tracks or corridors for the GO train, new LRTs or BRTs can the billions these subway projects cost buy us? The worst thing about the Fords' legacy is that it has empowered every suburbanite to demand the biggest, most grandiose projects to run through their neighbourhoods, all on someone else's dime.
a) to avoid wasting money, don't run every train into suburbia - and now you have an unattractive frequency. Why would you wait 10, 15 minutes for a subway train for a local journey when you can drive in much less time?
b) to avoid wasting money, you run trains of various lengths, which would be an operational nightmare and shorter trains would probably not be sufficient in the denser parts of the line closer to Yonge Street
c) to avoid operational complexity or unattractive frequencies, you run the full service into suburbia, which would be a waste of money
And because the experience with subway expansion so far is that they insist on running it underground to pander to the NIMBYs, that means the price tag would be astronomical for that, too.
If the suburbs want subways, they should pay for it themselves entirely out of their own pockets. Why must the entire rest of the province fund expensive subway projects to sprawling suburbs just because the people living there think they are too good for LRTs? How many new GO bus lines, new tracks or corridors for the GO train, new LRTs or BRTs can the billions these subway projects cost buy us? The worst thing about the Fords' legacy is that it has empowered every suburbanite to demand the biggest, most grandiose projects to run through their neighbourhoods, all on someone else's dime.
Railrunner
Active Member
Sheppard will not be converted to LRT. Just densify along Sheppard. STC to Yonge, Yonge to Sheppard West/ Allen District and commuters to York University and the Finch West LRT in the North and the University side of Line 1 and Yorkdale is enough to justify Sheppard from Sheppard West to STC.
sixrings
Senior Member
T3G
Senior Member
I'm not talking about converting the extant Sheppard line to LRT. I'm referring to the proposals above to extend the line to Pickering and Markham.
T3G
Senior Member
That's a nice populist soundbite, but the reality is much more complicated.
The GTA is growing and the amount of people who can't afford to live in walking distance to their work is getting larger all the time. They don't all live in the same place. Giving one group a huge, overbuilt subway means that much less money that could be spent on improvements for anyone else.
Like I said, if these places want subways, fine. They can pay for them, in full.
sixrings
Senior Member
I would also like to see sheppard get extended to the airport. Yes there is a finch lrt but that would require two additional transfers and peoples time and energy should be considered into planning.
sixrings
Senior Member
Doug ford is the premier. He said subways to Pickering. Is he a populist. Perhaps. That doesn’t really what matters. What matters is people voted for him twice. I am sorry but clearly he is getting more transit built than even the so called transit mayors. I tend to believe if he wants it to happen then it will happen.
As for Markham. It’s just a short few kms away. Not everyone can afford a GO fare and surely some Markham people just want to get to epicentre of Toronto (STC).
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T3G
Senior Member
I know what Ford said. He isn't a transit planner, nor am I remotely convinced he knows anything of transit planning, so just because he intends to send subways to Pickering doesn't mean it's a good idea or a good use of funds.
If Ford is feeling so generous, perhaps he might open up the purse strings and restore the GO routes Metrolinx discontinued under his watch for a start. Or are only people within a stone's throw of Toronto's subway worthy of having transit?
As for Markham, no one said people shouldn't be allowed to get to STC (which, as an aside, is not the epicenter of Toronto). LRT would do the job just fine. To minimize the need for a transfer they could even run it all the way to STC, the cost of laying down rail in the middle of the road would be trivial compared to any tunnel building. LRT is a good intermediate capacity transit solution, our insistence that we are too good for it is extremely detrimental.
If Ford is feeling so generous, perhaps he might open up the purse strings and restore the GO routes Metrolinx discontinued under his watch for a start. Or are only people within a stone's throw of Toronto's subway worthy of having transit?
As for Markham, no one said people shouldn't be allowed to get to STC (which, as an aside, is not the epicenter of Toronto). LRT would do the job just fine. To minimize the need for a transfer they could even run it all the way to STC, the cost of laying down rail in the middle of the road would be trivial compared to any tunnel building. LRT is a good intermediate capacity transit solution, our insistence that we are too good for it is extremely detrimental.
afransen
Senior Member
Would it be any crazier than the jog in Yonge North?
afransen
Senior Member
afransen
Senior Member
Much cheaper to extend Finch, no?
Rainforest
Senior Member
I don't see a point of extending Line 2 north of Sheppard, with a possible exception of a mostly at-grade extension to Malvern Centre using the CP Rail corridor.
Markham to STC can be served by light rail or BRT. At that point, it will be a route for local trips, as hardly anyone will want to travel to downtown using subway. The travel time difference between the subway and GO becomes too great, even when offset by the lower frequency of GO.
For Line 4, an extension east of McCowan only makes sense if it runs mostly at-grade / elevated, and connects to the Lakeshore East GO. That could serve non downtown-bound trips that involve Lakeshore GO and start / end in the northern Scarborough and North York. Not sure how much demand exists there, but worth exploring.
Markham to STC can be served by light rail or BRT. At that point, it will be a route for local trips, as hardly anyone will want to travel to downtown using subway. The travel time difference between the subway and GO becomes too great, even when offset by the lower frequency of GO.
For Line 4, an extension east of McCowan only makes sense if it runs mostly at-grade / elevated, and connects to the Lakeshore East GO. That could serve non downtown-bound trips that involve Lakeshore GO and start / end in the northern Scarborough and North York. Not sure how much demand exists there, but worth exploring.
afransen
Senior Member
More to the point, an extension eastwards from McCowan only makes sense on Ellesmere,
Rainforest
Senior Member
The curve should be smoother; TTC recommends a 300-m turning radius to reduce the wear of the wheels and rails. But I think it is doable.
I see 2 advantages and 1 disadvantage of combining Lines 2 and 4.
One advantage: all connecting routes terminating at Sheppard / McCowan and at STC will be connected to both subway lines. The same can't be achieved if the 2 lines stay separate.
Another potential advantage, only applies if they want to build a new subway yard in Malvern next to the CP yard. Then the connection between 2 and 4 brings the tracks closer.
One disadvantage: the combined line will be longer and thus less stable operationally. Say, when Line 1 has a delay somewhere between Finch West and York U stations, that delay is felt on the Yonge branch. The Operations Control tries to mitigate the impact and short-turns some or all trains to restore the headways in the unaffected segments, but the initial effect is always present. The same will be happening on Line 2+4.