nfitz
Superstar
Yes, Metrolinx estimated $670 million in June 2009. In comparison, the cost to build that subway in real dollars in the late 1990s and early 2000s was just under $1 billion.
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- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I recall it being approximately $700 Million to convert Line 4 from a heavy rail subway to a light rail subwa . The exact number can be found in the Sheppard-Finch LRT Benefits Study.
So in other words, the conversion is about the same cost as building about 2kms of subway. For any LRT extension greater than 2.5kms long, you're saving $290 million/km by doing the conversion, as opposed to building that same length as a subway.
nfitz
Superstar
In 2009 dollars? Closer to 3 km. That cost was less than 7 years after the subway opened, and the 6 km of subway only cost $970 million.
Filip
Senior Member
It's frustrating, isn't it? What do we then do when appropriately scaled transit is not planned for your neighbourhood so your tax monies are being wasted elsewhere? I mean I don't mind paying for improvements across Toronto, but not at the expense of my welfare.
I don't expect anything from the TTC (they are useless as an organization from the bottom to the top); but Metrolinx refuses to work on improvements in HBS, so basically there's no cure except driving... Which leads me to another thought I had.. If the city decides to bring back a plethora of 'car penalizing' taxes, should me and my neighbours be included? It would be far fairer to penalize those who live close to reliable rapid transit vs those who live in a transit black hole.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
The problem is we have already passed the point of no return. The Bloor Danforth extension is also a vanity project and it got passed, albeit slightly. I don't think we should force them to pay the operational costs. If the city makes a decision they whole city should pay for it. But they should expect their neighbourhood to change, and densify. If they don't like that, they can move. Neighbourhoods with a lot of mass transit will always look different then neighbourhoods with even frequent bus routs.
I mean, the simplest thing the TTC could do at this point is turn the Lakeshore Blvd West stretch of the 501 into a St. Clair-style streetcar ROW, instead of the mixed traffic operations it currently has. The street is certainly wide enough, as there's on-street parking lanes through much of the Long Branch community. That and build a short connector track between the current Exhibition loop at the Roncesvalles and Queen intersection and you have yourself a rapid transit line on the relatively cheap.
I think in general it's frustrating that Toronto refuses to go after the low-hanging fruit, principally because of it's lack of political appeal. Multi-billion dollar LRT and subway projects in the suburbs are flashy because they're big and new, but there are improvements that would make huge differences that can be done for the tens of millions, not the hundreds of millions.
Even down to things as small as turn on the signal priority along the Spadina corridor to speed up trains or actually enforce the transit-only lanes along King during rush hour. Far from rocket science, and far from a multi-billion dollar expenditure.
To clarify, I was talking about a Sheppard Subway extension, not the Bloor-Danforth extension. The Sheppard Extension would be a brand new project, so asking residents to pay the operational deficit now wouldn't really be sneaking it in after the fact. Citizens and councillors would be well aware of that fact before they decided to start rallying behind it or vote for it.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
I have to clarify too. I meant that Sheppard became a possibility again because we passed bloor danforth. I meant to say we should force a rezoning of Sheppard between Vic Park and McCowan because that would actually case change more then operational defecit. I feel that would divide the city more.
Yes, it is true that the Sheppard Subway support got a boost from people realizing that if you could overturn one LRT, you can do it again.
And rezoning would help a little bit, but the reality is that the bulk of the subway's ridership would come from connecting bus routes. Just look at stations like York Mills, Lawrence, Finch, etc. Most of their ridership doesn't come from walk-ins, it comes from people connecting via surface transit. I mean, just compare Bayview and Leslie to Bessarion. The former 2 have connecting perpendicular bus routes, while the latter doesn't. I would bet that, even once the development around the station is finished, the ridership there will still be the lowest on the system (excluding the SRT).
If there's anywhere that has to densify further, it's STC. It had a boom in the early 2000s, but has been very much stalled since then. It's been at least 3-4 years since we last saw a construction crane there.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Agreed. An express on warden, kennedy, etc would help greatly. Those routes I believe go to work region as well. Also Viva could connect more to the Sheppard Line as well at Vic Park. You have a point but I wonder if these people would be so will to have a subway if it meant their neighborhood looking like NYCC.
Rainforest
Senior Member
In my opinion, the relation between the two subway projects is reverse: the approval of Danforth extension eliminates any chance that Sheppard extension will be approved within the next 10 years.
This is partly due to both subways competing for same riders; but mostly, due to the simple fact that councilors and MPPs from boroughs located outside Scarborough, would rather push for transit improvements in their boroughs.
Rainforest
Senior Member
A continuous rapid transit line across the north of the city is desirable.
But I can't imagine the city council or Metrolinx agreeing to spend $760 million to convert Sheppard subway to LRT. Note that this is the cost of about 1000 new buses, or 150 new streetcars (practically, the second streetcar fleet).
IMO, there are two options for building the northern crosstown route.
Option 1: if Scarborough accepts Sheppard East LRT, then let it be; but consider increasing the stop spacing east of McCowan to make it run faster.
In a more distant future (20+ years?), convert Sheppard subway to mini-metro, and extend westward to Pearson. That will create a crosstown route; with a minor nuisance of transfer at Don Mills, but running reasonably fast.
I sketched a picture of such route (below), together with subway interchanges and Finch LRT.
Option 2: if Scarborough rejects Sheppard East LRT, then nothing gets built there in the short term. Eventually, the whole Sheppard - Wilson line may be implemented as mini-metro; but I would not expect it to start sooner than in 20+ years.
One can ask: why bother converting Sheppard subway to mini-metro? Mini-metro is probably not much cheaper than TTC subway if the line is straight, or can make smooth turns.
However, mini-metro should be able to handle much sharper turns than a full-fledged subway, as well as fit into tighter corridors. That might permit cheaper routing choices. At the same time, converting the existing subway tunnel to high-floor mini-metro should be many times cheaper than converting it to low-floor LRT.
But I can't imagine the city council or Metrolinx agreeing to spend $760 million to convert Sheppard subway to LRT. Note that this is the cost of about 1000 new buses, or 150 new streetcars (practically, the second streetcar fleet).
IMO, there are two options for building the northern crosstown route.
Option 1: if Scarborough accepts Sheppard East LRT, then let it be; but consider increasing the stop spacing east of McCowan to make it run faster.
In a more distant future (20+ years?), convert Sheppard subway to mini-metro, and extend westward to Pearson. That will create a crosstown route; with a minor nuisance of transfer at Don Mills, but running reasonably fast.
I sketched a picture of such route (below), together with subway interchanges and Finch LRT.
Option 2: if Scarborough rejects Sheppard East LRT, then nothing gets built there in the short term. Eventually, the whole Sheppard - Wilson line may be implemented as mini-metro; but I would not expect it to start sooner than in 20+ years.
One can ask: why bother converting Sheppard subway to mini-metro? Mini-metro is probably not much cheaper than TTC subway if the line is straight, or can make smooth turns.
However, mini-metro should be able to handle much sharper turns than a full-fledged subway, as well as fit into tighter corridors. That might permit cheaper routing choices. At the same time, converting the existing subway tunnel to high-floor mini-metro should be many times cheaper than converting it to low-floor LRT.
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nfitz
Superstar
Under construction already! Viva!
johntauren
Active Member
If you mean Viva, that's not even in Toronto and way too far north.