[shivyyz]

And why should we built a subway on Sheppard East now that will be under-used for decades when we could build the DRL or Yonge north extension. DRL phase 1, 2 and 3 would all be much better used and much more urgent than a subway on Sheppard East.

Why should we build a subway on Sheppard which will be relatively empty for decades, vs one near King st downtown which will be very well used immediately and relieve the overcrowded streetcars?

There are so many subway routes I would put ahead of Sheppard East.

Some people think its better to build when needed which causes more delays and technical issues and others like myself believe its better to be pre emptive about it cause lets face it, the core is running out of room and its about time we had some new population centers.

In what possible way do subways last exponentially longer? Which exponent? 2? So streetcar track lasts 20 years and subway track lasts 400 years?

I think we've seen on the Yonge subway, the tunnel segments north of Eglinton opened only 40 years ago, how well that's going.

Subways still require maintenance. As do the large stations. How much does annual maintenance costs on Leslie station compared to a surface stop? Even basics like cleaning! And then there's these expectations about having staff in stations.

It's a massive waste of money. There may be a case of extending it a bit further to Victoria Park, to get it past the bottleneck at the 404 (same reason a Danforth subway should cross to Sheppard instead stopping it at Scarborough Centre). But the ridership estimates once you hit Scarborough, east of Victoria Park are abysmal.

There's a better case in the west, because a relatively short line provides connection to the Spadina line, and most importantly, connectivity into Wilson yard. But the estimated ridership to the west is still pathetic, lower than the existing piece between Yonge and Don Mills.

And yet there's been relatively little development on Danforth between Yonge and Woodbine in the 50 years since that line started construction. Sure there would be some, but that was factored into the future estimated ridership, that was so low.

No, it's 4 cars.

It's amusing that the graphic you are using is from the Ford campaign. I'm not sure that provides much credibility to the idea!

Though connecting Sheppard to Danforth is interesting. Though I think further up the thread, or in another I suggest the same. And in the west I suggested connecting the existing Spadina line to the Sheppard line through Downsview and down Sheppard West.

One subway line for the entire city. However, I was being humorous!

More than an exponent of 2. Once the initial tunneling is complete the city wont have to worry about upgrading it for 100+ years. Like I said in another reply in this post, I believe the price we pay for the subway now will be less than waiting till its a few years overdue. I prefer a subway but it would be nice to see something finally happen in that area as its a huge void on our transit maps. If the LRT is not as hot as expected passengers will ultimately end up paying with time which in most instances is worth more than money.

I went to Tory and Chows sites but they didnt have a map that I could use to highlight my example. Notice my cropping work to try and avoid making this a political debate? Sarah Thomson had a useable map but meh.

Properly designed LRTs tend to have similar stop spacing to a subway, and signal priority to minimize red lights, if not eliminate them. The SELRT will have the latter, but not the former. While these lines will not be streetcars, they definitely are not as rapid as I believe they should be. Still, try taking the Viva Purple from Bayview to Montgomery (just east of Woodbine) to get an idea of how the SELRT will run. Reviewing the video I recorded, it took about 11 minutes to go 4.6km, or an average speed of 25.1km/h. Not too shabby.

I cant find the video but was it off or on peak?

Although I personally like elevated transit lines: I like the view, I like that you can see the trains and that it's fully grade separated.

I think that many here:
A. Under estimate the cost
B. Over estimate how much people would like it.

It would be a similar situation politically as the Scarborough LRT (which was an elevated line) vs Scarborough subway (danforth ext). The costs will be something like $2.5 billion and subway $3 billion (making these numbers up), and politicians will say "why build elevated when for only 500 million you could have underground".

Other Ford-like politicians will say "Why does downtown get underground transit while Scarborough gets above ground. Downtowners will be in heated comfy stations while Scarborough people freeze their butts off outside".

Also: "world class cities build subways underground". Even though yes, London, NYC, Chicago and Paris all have elevated lines. You know they will say that.

The other thing is, no politician is proposing elevated trains. Maybe if the Eglinton part of SmartTrack happens, it could be elevated, I would be fine with that.

Elevated lines could work aslong as locals dont start crying about noise as is the case with many NIMBYists. I live near the end of the 97 bus on the street it turns off of from Yonge. Found out that the blue night bus doesnt use the same route because some crotchety old people opposed it. Heaven forbid they here a vehicle passing through every 20 minutes.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Agreed. I think this should be the compromise given to many resients: in-median, or elevated.

Although I don't favour elevating our subway rolling stock above streets or near any residents. The viaduct would be too wide, and the trains themselves are mammoth. So I guess in this instance, the Sheppard Stub should be converted to LRT to serve as a crosstown line.

Although I personally like elevated transit lines: I like the view, I like that you can see the trains and that it's fully grade separated.

I think that many here:
A. Under estimate the cost
B. Over estimate how much people would like it.

It would be a similar situation politically as the Scarborough LRT (which was an elevated line) vs Scarborough subway (danforth ext). The costs will be something like $2.5 billion and subway $3 billion (making these numbers up), and politicians will say "why build elevated when for only 500 million you could have underground".

Other Ford-like politicians will say "Why does downtown get underground transit while Scarborough gets above ground. Downtowners will be in heated comfy stations while Scarborough people freeze their butts off outside".

Also: "world class cities build subways underground". Even though yes, London, NYC, Chicago and Paris all have elevated lines. You know they will say that.

The other thing is, no politician is proposing elevated trains. Maybe if the Eglinton part of SmartTrack happens, it could be elevated, I would be fine with that.

The interesting thing is that the Fords were in favour of elevated transit - remember the Portlands "monorail". Everyone knows that "monorail" means elevated to the common person. Somehow I think that the Fords were not smart enough to think about elevated transit for Eglinton, otherwise they would have supported it. And no other politician wanted to suggest elevated and help with the Ford vision of grade-separated transit.

Some people think its better to build when needed which causes more delays and technical issues and others like myself believe its better to be pre emptive about it cause lets face it, the core is running out of room and its about time we had some new population centers.




More than an exponent of 2. Once the initial tunneling is complete the city wont have to worry about upgrading it for 100+ years. Like I said in another reply in this post, I believe the price we pay for the subway now will be less than waiting till its a few years overdue. I prefer a subway but it would be nice to see something finally happen in that area as its a huge void on our transit maps. If the LRT is not as hot as expected passengers will ultimately end up paying with time which in most instances is worth more than money.

I went to Tory and Chows sites but they didnt have a map that I could use to highlight my example. Notice my cropping work to try and avoid making this a political debate? Sarah Thomson had a useable map but meh.


I cant find the video but was it off or on peak?


Elevated lines could work aslong as locals dont start crying about noise as is the case with many NIMBYists. I live near the end of the 97 bus on the street it turns off of from Yonge. Found out that the blue night bus doesnt use the same route because some crotchety old people opposed it. Heaven forbid they here a vehicle passing through every 20 minutes.

Infact most of NYC is elevated, so are large portions of Paris and London. The subway would cost less if elevated. Maybe half of an underground subway. And it won't be as tied to density requirements.

 

[nfitz]

More than an exponent of 2. Once the initial tunneling is complete the city wont have to worry about upgrading it for 100+ years.

That is so completely wrong. Surface track lasts 10 years and subway lasts 100 years? I've never heard anythign so utterly wrong-headed.

There is completely no need to build subway to Morningside. There is no where near enough demand for subway there, and so many other places where subway would be better used.

It's not going to happen. The operating subsidy to operate the line would be insane.

Meanwhile, for the $3 billion it could cost, you could instead build that line as LRT, build the Scarborough-Malvern line, and also build the Don Mills LRT. You could serve far more people.

 

[ehlow]

As I said, I like elevated. I think it actually looks really cool and adds verticality & character to an area. As I riding experience I prefer being able to see outside as well, rather than in being in a dark tunnel for a long time (one of the reasons I like Yonge from Eg to Bloor).

Unfortunately there was only one elevated line proposed recently, which was cancelled in favour of a tunnelled line: the Scarborough LRT, which would have been elevated on the extension up to Sheppard I believe.

No one else is proposing any elevated alignments that I know of, unless SmartTrack ends up with an elevated section.

 

[BurlOak]

Unfortunately there was only one elevated line proposed recently, which was cancelled in favour of a tunnelled line: the Scarborough LRT, which would have been elevated on the extension up to Sheppard I believe.

But it also must be said that the reason it was cancelled was 90% because of the transfer at Kennedy and 10% because of the lengthy shutdown for conversion to LRT. There was not one negative remark about elevated - Actually, I think during the development of the plan they preferred elevated to on-street.

 

[W. K. Lis]

One tricky component might be changing the ceiling tunnel height in some places. Although a half-dozen weekend outages should be able to take care of that.

IIRC, the bored tunnel is tall enough but the cut&cover sections *may* be too low. I believe this change is reflected in the cost.

No need to increase the ceiling height in the tunnels. LRV's can and do use third rail, and they do switch power supplies where needed. At stations they can also switch to catenary-free power supply using Primove, see link.

[video=youtube_share;EZylrGjebnw]http://youtu.be/EZylrGjebnw[/video]

 

[rbt]

No need to increase the ceiling height in the tunnels. LRV's can and do use third rail, and they do switch power supplies where needed. At stations they can also switch to catenary-free power supply using Primove, see link.

Sure. If we're using a custom fleet for Sheppard we could use high-floor LRTs (see Calgary downtown stops for what surface stops might look like), mixed-power feed, and TTC gauge rail; making zero modifications to the existing subway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Sure. If we're using a custom fleet for Sheppard we could use high-floor LRTs (see Calgary downtown stops for what surface stops might look like), mixed-power feed, and TTC gauge rail; making zero modifications to the existing subway.

They can still lower the hollow platforms as per the previous comments.

Changing the rail gauge can be done quickly, they did that with the interurban tracks between September 11 and September 17, 1927, when the Lake Simcoe radial tracks were regauged from standard gauge to the TTC’s wider streetcar gauge. See link.

 

[rbt]

They can still lower the hollow platforms as per the previous comments.

They can but escalators and elevators don't really magically extend themselves.

Frankly, I think raising the ceiling in the some parts of cut & cover cross-over sections would be cheaper than the platform adjustments. That said, Sheppard will be coming up on it's 30 year renewal soon when escalators and elevators need to be replaced anyway (soon for this definition is by the time an EA, and funding could be in place).

 

[nfitz]

They can but escalators and elevators don't really magically extend themselves.

Frankly, I think raising the ceiling in the some parts of cut & cover cross-over sections would be cheaper than the platform adjustments.

I'd agree. The cost to fix all the elevators and escalators alone would be massive.

That said, Sheppard will be coming up on it's 30 year renewal soon when escalators and elevators need to be replaced anyway (soon for this definition is by the time an EA, and funding could be in place).

Sheppard subway opened less than 14 years ago! And since when were elevators and escalators replaced after 30 years? Even if they did, there's a big difference between replacing existing, and having to excavate deeper, and building new structural elements!

 

[mdrejhon]

See link.

I learn something new everyday.
Back 100 years ago, in year 1915 it was possible to ride a streetcar all the way from Toronto to Lake Simcoe, north of Newmarket! That is further than Toronto-Hamilton. Within your link, I found this gem of a 1915 Yonge streetcar map:

Long streetcar ride!

It is a commentary of how slow our transit expansion is nowadays, though. Including Sheppard.

 

[rbt]

And since when were elevators and escalators replaced after 30 years?

The mid-life overhaul of Sheppard escalators has already started (mid-life being 15 years). And the short answer is that electric motors, gears, etc. don't last forever. They get gutted and new equipment put into place.

 

[nfitz]

The mid-life overhaul of Sheppard escalators has already started (mid-life being 15 years). And the short answer is that electric motors, gears, etc. don't last forever. They get gutted and new equipment put into place.

A lot cheaper than extending.

But elsewhere in this thread someone is saying we should extend it to Meadowvale, because although it's an investment, it will last for 100 years. I'm not sure how the large operational cost and particularly maintenance cost of a subway line are an investment!

 

[Wrenkin]

They can still lower the hollow platforms as per the previous comments.

Changing the rail gauge can be done quickly, they did that with the interurban tracks between September 11 and September 17, 1927, when the Lake Simcoe radial tracks were regauged from standard gauge to the TTC’s wider streetcar gauge. See link.

I'm not an expert, but I can imagine that it would be pretty quick to re-gague if you're using wooden ties—just whack one rail over a bit towards the centre and re-nail. Wouldn't it be a lot more involved with concrete ties?

 

[W. K. Lis]

TTC gauge is 1,495 mm. Standard gauge is 1,435 mm. That's a 60 mm difference.