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TOareaFan said:
That is how I read it.....so a candidate for the party that approved the project and set it underway, buys himself re-election by being the one to say he would stop it if elected and, let's be clear, buys that re-election with the chequebook of the rest of us because there are going to be costs to re-imburse and fees/penalties to be paid while, per the news release from the Liberals (who approved it then bought votes by cancelling it) "will work with Eastern “to find a new location for the plant.” "

So they acknowledge we need the plant, so it will be built in someone's neighbourhood....just not in this neighbourhood (a victory for NIMBYism) and will end up costing more than it should/could have because a government needed to buy a riding to keep governing. (the self same reason Oakville was cancelled.....or was it because right next door to the Ford plant was not industrial enough for a power plant either?).
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Looks like they have identified a new location.

I am looking forward to one of the opposition parties bringing down this government over the budget so that the Liberal candidates in Brampton can explain why they would be willing to spend Ontario taxpayer money to buy votes in Mississauga and Oakville by cancelling projects on industrial lands in those municipalities and then just locate the thing in Brampton.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/new...ed-electrical-plant-may-be-coming-to-brampton

EDIT: Brampton's Mayor has come out and said this will not find a home in Brampton and she has advised the proponent of that.
 
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Riverdale Rink Rat said:
It's official: I'll never vote for these pinheads again. So crass.
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I think the thing that is so repulsive is that they have managed to do this without detailing a) what that $180 million entails (leading to the obvious question "is that really the total") and b) what was the cost of cancelling the Oakville plant.

Methinks $180 million is a low ball estimate of what those two seats cost us.
 
TOareaFan said:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...delay-release-of-secret-power-plant-documents
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I must say, I am a bit surprised that the level of outrage over this is so low.

There is another thread dealing with the (mis)conduct of a politician....one that people debate as to whether or not is he bright enough to lead...one who has, apparantly, violated the rules over a matter in the thousands of dollars and one that has elicited a lot of outrage.

Here we have a guy who, I doubt, anyone could have any doubt about his intellect (He has previously served as Attorney General, Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities and Minister of Labour. A lawyer who practiced criminal and labour law for almost 25 years. For 10 of those years he also taught part-time at the University of Western Ontario Law School.) A guy who a member of his own party (the Speaker of the House) has stated he broke rules by not releasing the papers in question....a matter that involves hundreds of millions of dollars.....and yet there is silence.

Not defending either guy....but the juxtaposition of the two matters is very interesting to me.
 
There certainly isn't the media coverage. There's also nothing illegal about this, even though the whole fiasco between this and the Oakville site cancellations leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It shows that some ridings are more important than others. The Liberals will spends hundreds of millions on cancelling these plants yet will screw the Northeast with the shutdown of Ontario Northland. The underhanded, sneaky and deceitful manner that Rick Bartolucci made that announcement, in his own riding, rather than in North Bay, was disgraceful, and that promise of "enhanced bus service" to replace the Northlander train was a total lie.

The Sherway site was a poor choice from the start, especially after the Oakville fight.
 
ShonTron said:
There certainly isn't the media coverage. There's also nothing illegal about this, even though the whole fiasco between this and the Oakville site cancellations leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It shows that some ridings are more important than others. The Liberals will spends hundreds of millions on cancelling these plants yet will screw the Northeast with the shutdown of Ontario Northland. The underhanded, sneaky and deceitful manner that Rick Bartolucci made that announcement, in his own riding, rather than in North Bay, was disgraceful, and that promise of "enhanced bus service" to replace the Northlander train was a total lie.

The Sherway site was a poor choice from the start, especially after the Oakville fight.
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Nothing illegal? "Speaker Dave Levac found there was a "prima facie" case of breach of privilege when Bentley refused to provide all the documents on the cancelled gas plants to a legislative committee."

The report on the CBC on the 13th of september (I will try and find a link) suggests that the punishments range from a slap on the wrist to jail time.

Here it is.....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ronto-ontario-government-contempt-ruling.html

Also, no apology from the minister.
 
I'll grant you that, but after the Harper government being found in contempt of Parliament for similar acts (hiding expenditures), there was no outcry either from most people, no they reelected that government and handed it a majority.
 
ShonTron said:
I'll grant you that, but after the Harper government being found in contempt of Parliament for similar acts (hiding expenditures), there was no outcry either from most people, no they reelected that government and handed it a majority.
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I was actually expressing surprise over the lack of outrage here.....where people appear to be more engaged than the population at large......was not meant as a right/left...got-for-tat sort of thing....just an observation.
 
TOareaFan said:
I was actually expressing surprise over the lack of outrage here.....where people appear to be more engaged than the population at large......was not meant as a right/left...got-for-tat sort of thing....just an observation.
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Perhaps because many realise that the government is in a complex negotiation to terminate the project, and that providing all the documents before these negotiations are complete may well cost taxpayers millions of dollars.

Not sure the big deal, the documents would come out eventually.

And I'm scratching my head about the Tory outrage about this whole thing ... they had also promised to cancel the project.

Personally, I'm outraged that the Liberals cancelled the project. Perhaps if the true cost of the cancelling it was out there, they'd come to their senses and simply finish the power station and put it on-line.
 
nfitz said:
Perhaps because many realise that the government is in a complex negotiation to terminate the project, and that providing all the documents before these negotiations are complete may well cost taxpayers millions of dollars.

Not sure the big deal, the documents would come out eventually.
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So there is a context where breaking rules/laws by our elected officials should be/is acceptable to the public?


nfitz said:
And I'm scratching my head about the Tory outrage about this whole thing ... they had also promised to cancel the project.

Personally, I'm outraged that the Liberals cancelled the project. Perhaps if the true cost of the cancelling it was out there, they'd come to their senses and simply finish the power station and put it on-line.
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I share the outrage over the cancellation......doubt you could ever re-start it now that we are this far.
 
TOareaFan said:
So there is a context where breaking rules/laws by our elected officials should be/is acceptable to the public?
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Yes. The context would be where there either is an appeal is in progress, or releasing the documents would break other rules/laws.

Not sure the big issue here ... they have said they would quite happily show the opposition the documents now - just not make copies. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the current state of negotiations with the contractor.
 
nfitz said:
Yes. The context would be where there either is an appeal is in progress, or releasing the documents would break other rules/laws.
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Not sure what laws would be broken by releasing it. It may make their negotiating stance with the contractors/suppliers more difficult but laws? Even they have not said they "cannot" they have just said they would rather not and will not.

nfitz said:
Not sure the big issue here ... they have said they would quite happily show the opposition the documents now - just not make copies. This doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the current state of negotiations with the contractor.
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Not sure it is a big deal...nor did I suggest same. I just noticed a difference on how two politicians who are both felt to have broken rules are being treated by the opinions expressed on UT.

One concern I do have is over this notion that the price can go up if information is released. The government of the day was very happy to release a $190 million figure in response to the opposition claims that the the number was north of a billion....the notion that it can go up from $190 million raises some concern over, both, the figure and the way it was released.
 
TOareaFan said:
Not sure what laws would be broken by releasing it.
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Depends on the case. You asked a general question, not tied to a specific example.

TOareaFan said:
I just noticed a difference on how two politicians who are both felt to have broken rules are being treated by the opinions expressed on UT.
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Three years down the road, when McGuinty is in the middle of an impeachment process, then it may be a comparable situation. If Ford had simply done what the integrity commissioner told him to do 3 years ago (even if it took him a year to comply), we wouldn't be where we are now on that one.

TOareaFan said:
One concern I do have is over this notion that the price can go up if information is released. The government of the day was very happy to release a $190 million figure in response to the opposition claims that the the number was north of a billion....the notion that it can go up from $190 million raises some concern over, both, the figure and the way it was released.
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The government of the day would have relied on information provided to them by civil servants. It might shock you to know that even government employees make mistakes.
 
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