[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tewder:

Of course there's always the stance that being born in Canada or having the opportunity to move and settle here is essentially the international equivalence of 'winning the lottery', and most people around the world, developed or undeveloped, would look at people here who complain or who 'opt out' with disgust! Putting aside partisan propaganda and political spin for the moment lets not lose site that our priviledged outrage/indignation over any perceived Harris legacy is still grossly inconsequential, not to mention pathetic, compared to the real hardship and lack of hope or opportunity that people in most countries have to endure.

And therefore we should strive towards the lowest common denominator?

Oh, and just out of curosity, what is the general crime rate in the urban centres of these uber-poor nations? And is it in everyone's interest to replicate these scenarios for the sake of privileged outrage and indignation? Urban violence is an issue with many facets - laying the blame on individuals for their failings might sound convenient and even be accurate sometimes, but it doesn't deal with the problem. In fact, policies taken from such a perspective is likely to make things worse, not better.

AoD

 

[lordmandeep]

hey many immigrants have come here and faced disappointment.

Do you see them going shooting on a subway.

Stop with these excuses.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In all likelihood, the said individuals probably aren't even immigrants, so I am not sure why that even came up?

The issue is at hand is that certain social conditions (poverty, culture, etc) had lead to criminal activity that the society have an interest in preventing. I suggest starting to deal with the pathways that lead to violence instead of engaging in histronics.

AoD

 

[Hipster Duck]

The trouble with the argument that it is lack of afterschool activites or other opportunities is that is the easy argument and not necessarily true. For every gang member that comes out of a poor background there are many more who go on to do quite well, or at least stay out of trouble and pursue normal lives. In my line of work, I see lots of people who subsist on very little income, but who work 10-12 hours a day to better themselves, so how is it that these people cannot? How is it that they decide to pursue a violent lifestyle rather than a productive one? To answer my own question, I suspect the answer lies in social norms, or rather, if you associate being a gang member as a positive you will see nothing wrong in choosing that life. How to address that, I can't say.

I agree that simplistic measures like afterschool activities will do very little to stem gang violence in certain parts of the city. Usually, if a solution to a societal problem is proposed, it has very little bearing on solving the actual problem. Invisible forces operating in society have much more impact. For example, Malcolm Gladwell (I believe, don't quote me on this) talks about how increased access to abortions in the late 1970s and early 1980s may have led to a significant reduction in violent crime when children born at that point may have reached their late teens. The theory? That aborted fetuses are unwanted children that will not grow up with love and support and thus are much more likely to turn to crime. Another example that I can think of off the top of my head is how the drug of choice among poor African Americans switched from crack cocaine (a highly addictive, complex drug originating from Columbia which must have a sophisticated trafficking network) to weed (a not-as-addictive drug that anybody with a knack for gardening can grow in the comfort of their own home). Without the need for a violent criminal gang to grow rich off trafficing crack, crime in inner city ghettos began a dramatic decline in the mid 1990s.

 

[Whoaccio]

For example, Malcolm Gladwell (I believe, don't quote me on this) talks about how increased access to abortions led to a substantial decline in the late 1970s and early 1980s may have led to a significant reduction in violent crime when children born at that point may have reached their late teens. The theory? That aborted fetuses are unwanted children that will not grow up with love and support and thus are much more likely to turn to crime.

That fun little theory was popularized Stephen Levitt in Freakonomics, but has existed since Roman times at least.

 

[MisterF]

There are only two solutions to the problem of gangsters and guns. Elminate the gun, or eliminate the gangsta.

3. Eliminate the conditions that lead to people joining gangs in the first place. It's been proven many times that the "heavy handed justice" you advocate doesn't work.

 

[SP!RE]

Take a friggin' first year university course in Sociology.

Tougher sentences DON'T work.

 

[Admiral Beez]

hey many immigrants have come here and faced disappointment.

Do you see them going shooting on a subway.

Stop with these excuses.

IMO, it comes down firmly on the stability of two-parent families. We've always had immigrants who've faced discrimination in schools and in the workforce. However, a strong family can get you through almost anything.

 

[doady]

Yes crime prevention is the key. What are the root causes? Rap music is one, imo.

 

[egotrippin]

Man shot inside city nightclub

Jan 24, 2009 12:36 PM
Jaspreet Tambar
Staff reporter
Sunny freeman
Staff reporter

A 20-year-old man was shot inside Tonic Nightclub, in the area of Queen St. W. and Spadina Ave. early this morning.

The victim suffered gunshot wounds to his left arm and thigh inside the club on Peter St. around 3 a.m., the result of a single bullet, police say.

He was taken to St. Michael's Hospital with non-life threatening injuries.

A second victim, a 21-year-old woman, was found suffering from minor injuries after flying shrapnel grazed the side of her face. She was treated on scene by emergency personnel.

Police shut down the club and canvassed the area looking for witnesses and suspects.

They have spoken with the victim, who provided only vague information to investigators, said Toronto police Staff Sgt. John Whitworth.

Police do not have any suspect information at this time.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/576705

Seriously, another one, what is wrong with people. And in the Entertainment District no less, so you know what this means, more fuel for the abolish clubland advocates. Adam Vaughn's going to have a field day with this one, no doubt.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Yes crime prevention is the key. What are the root causes? Rap music is one, imo.

Garbage. The rise of gangsta rap coincided with the decline of violent crime in the mid-1990s.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Yes crime prevention is the key. What are the root causes? Rap music is one, imo.

if someone is gonna commit a crime or join the life of crime because of some music lyrics, i think the bigger issue is the inability of people to think on their own, allowing themselves to be easily mislead.

 

[adma]

That fun little theory was popularized Stephen Levitt in Freakonomics, but has existed since Roman times at least.

And the obverse of the "increased access to abortions" argument is that those who were still procreating were increasingly "true believers", i.e. conservative Xtians, cultural traditionalists, and the like.

Though it didn't prevent the supposed offspring of post-70s "natalism culture" from voting overwhelmingly for Obama...

 

[wonderboy416]

Seriously, another one, what is wrong with people. And in the Entertainment District no less, so you know what this means, more fuel for the abolish clubland advocates. Adam Vaughn's going to have a field day with this one, no doubt.

We'll no doubt start to see increased security when entering Toronto's clubs. I've been frisked at a number of clubs, I've also just walked right into several others.

alcohol + male testosterone + girls in skimpy outfits + weapons = recipe for disaster.

Perhaps the legal age should be raised to 21 for entry to these establishments, I can't believe I'm saying that but in my experiences the older crowd "gets it" while the younger crowd are often out to cause problems. Of course that punishes the well behaved 19-20 year olds. hmm

 

[egotrippin]

What are the root causes? Rap music is one, imo.

This ranks up there with some of the stupidest, and possibly ignorant things I've heard. If anything, crime and the gangster lifestyle caused rap music.

As far as club security goes, many do need to up the door checks a bit. Having it come down to metal detectors would be unfortunate, but it's obvious guns can still get in. I've been to Tonic, and I recall a pat-down before entering, so someone's been slacking. I think dress codes can help, because it's far harder to find concealed weapons in excessively layered and baggy clothing. Mandatory coat checks, and thorough purse and bag checks should be a must as well.