[crs1026]

Are you completely ignoring what salsa said about the Liberals cutting $4B in 2010 and all transit projects scaled back? Do you pick and choose and choose to blame Ford? Really?

That's what the second sentence in my quote referred to.

And I was taking Miller to task as much as Ford. Miller's ideas may have been leading edge, but they were introduced in a spirit of "we know what's good for you". Ford's shots against the "elites" had some validity in the sense that Miller's crowd did believe that anyone who didn't see the merits of their ideas must be stupid.

However, If I were picking and choosing things to blame Ford for, it would have been a much longer post.

- Paul

 

[Tewder]

You've got to be joking. Look at the massive transit expansion we are experience with a lot more coming. Compare that to the guys that filled in holes that had already been excavated.

No I'm quite serious. I have no interest in defending the Conservatives from 20 years ago, really what's the point? The liberals are in power now and have been in power for 13 years. I think it's fair to ask just what has been accomplished. Presumably we voted them in - time and time again - because they promised to accomplish more on these files than the conservatives. Have they? Are we 13 years ahead? No, and quite the opposite! They've squandered a mandate... yet we keep defending them.

By the way, the conservatives under Hudak already campaigned on building a DRL back in 2014.

If the Liberals are so scandalous as you say, then it should be real easy to defeat them. Shows how weak the opposition are if they haven't been able to do it for 13 years now.

That's just my point. It doesn't really matter whether the opposition is strong or week, we keep voting for the liberals based on partisan ideologies and fear mongering. It'd be one thing if this was helping us, if we were receiving scads of Liberal funding in exchange for our loyalty. We're not. Suckers.

 

[kEiThZ]

They will have delivered about as much as Tory will have by 2018 but you're still going to vote for him.

And you think Chow would have delivered the DRL by 2020?

We all know that a mayor has rather limited power for delivering transit. At best he can influence the provincial vision. And that's exactly as it should be. My actual preference in this area would be municipal governments to have limited involvement in transit beyond paying for and setting standards for feeder bus services. If Patrick Brown proposes uploading the TTC or even the subway network, he'll have my vote.

 

[kEiThZ]

Seeing as how it can take 10 plus years for subway and lrts to be planned and built in Toronto, even if they had started planning and constructing transit projects from 2003, how many would we expect to be built. Go and ask Tory if he still expects Smart Track to be finished in 7 years

Do you think the average voter cares about that? Answer honestly....
In fact, many see that as a problem, not something governments deserve credit for. "Why the hell does it take them so long to build something?" I can see it being quite a liability if the Liberals ran on, "It only took us 10 years to build a subway!"

The cynic in me says the Liberals have deliberately planned it such that the completion of much of this wave of transit projects depends on their re-election in 2018; as a way to keep milking the "don't-vote-for-the-PCs-because-they'll-destroy-everything!" mantra one more time.

There are many valid criticisms one can make of the Wynne government, but "not doing anything" is not one of them.

Absolutely. Were I Wynne's shoes that's exactly what I'd do. But I also know that when I talk to friends and family, they don't perceive anything actually being done on transit because they don't see any actual new service. TYSSE isn't open yet. And the one service that did open (UPE) was an overpriced boondoggle (from their perspective, not mine).

Spend time away from this forum. Ask your friends and family, if they think the Liberal government has done lots for transit. Keep in mind that this forum is no where near the average voter.

Blaming Mike Harris will always carry weight

Immigration and aging alone ensure that there's a massive chunk of voters that either no memory of, or very limited memory of Mike Harris. I read an article the other day that described most American millenials as being rather befuddled by Bill Clinton. He's seen as an elder statesman. Some of the younger millenials weren't even born when Clinton was in office. And Bill Clinton is at least still in the spotlight. Mike Harris isn't out campaigning. I would absolutely be willing to bet that running against him as a bogeyman would fall flat. That's why a centrist message would actually sell well for the tories.

 

[Tewder]

All day GO, 30 minute service, UP Express, York Subway, MiWay BRT, York BRT, new/rebuilt GO stations all over the place, Kitchener LRT, Ottawa LRT, likely GO service enhancements into Niagara region will all be here by 2018. It really is significant when compared to any government before it. At the same point they will be able to point at Eglinton Crosstown, Finch LRT, Mississauga LRT, Hamilton LRT, RER, and electrification as construction projects.

This will be good for 20 years of power? No. This is a huge shortfall over where we need to be. We still do not have commitments for where we need to be.

 

[salsa]

If Patrick Brown proposes uploading the TTC or even the subway network, he'll have my vote.

So you're an ex-Hudak supporter?

 

[salsa]

By the way, the conservatives under Hudak already campaigned on building a DRL back in 2014.

They also campaigned on extending the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre, and there is no way that they would prioritize the DRL over that (for political reasons).

 

[rbt]

So you're an ex-Hudak supporter?

Hudak didn't propose doing that.

Hudak proposed:
1. Balance Budget
2. Tax Cuts
3. Once #1 and #2 are finished (his wording did not allow for parallel progress), doing something with transit (DRL, Transport for London scheme, etc.)

Hudak's transit ideas weren't bad, they simply weren't going to get consideration before the 2018 election. If Brown gets elected, then the Hudak transit plan is 100% on schedule.

I voted for the person who put "do something about transit" as #1 priority rather than #3.

 

[Tewder]

I'm not sure the conservatives would deliver anything better, to be honest. The point is that blind partisanship doesn't work for the city, not provincially and not federally. We are better off having two parties vying for our votes.

 

[Forgotten]

And you think Chow would have delivered the DRL by 2020?

We all know that a mayor has rather limited power for delivering transit. At best he can influence the provincial vision. And that's exactly as it should be. My actual preference in this area would be municipal governments to have limited involvement in transit beyond paying for and setting standards for feeder bus services. If Patrick Brown proposes uploading the TTC or even the subway network, he'll have my vote.

I didn't mention Chow did I?

Here's Tory's MO: Promise the moon. Get your plan gutted once or twice a week until there's nothing left. Ride the coattails of somebody else. Deliver air. But that's okay because he's just a $177.499/year cheerleader. Vote Tory!

The cognitive dissonance is real.

edit: added costs

 

[salsa]

Hudak didn't propose doing that.

Yes he did.

A policy paper released Thursday by the provincial Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak includes a transit plan that would see all Toronto subways and future light rail lines run by the province through Metrolinx. Streetcar lines and bus routes would be left in the city’s hands.

 

[kEiThZ]

All day GO, 30 minute service, UP Express, York Subway, MiWay BRT, York BRT, new/rebuilt GO stations all over the place, Kitchener LRT, Ottawa LRT, likely GO service enhancements into Niagara region will all be here by 2018. It really is significant when compared to any government before it. At the same point they will be able to point at Eglinton Crosstown, Finch LRT, Mississauga LRT, Hamilton LRT, RER, and electrification as construction projects.

This will be good for 20 years of power? No. This is a huge shortfall over where we need to be. We still do not have commitments for where we need to be.

It's not honestly all that bad for 15 years in power. The problem is that the region is so transit starved that it's a drop in the bucket for what's needed. And it leaves them more vulnerable than people in this forum realize.

Think of Rob Ford. Nobody on UT ever thought he could get elected (even me) because we all really misunderstood public anger and susceptibility to manipulation. Then it happened.

With transit, delivery is everything. It's one thing to get excited about all the projects coming up on UT. It's another world to be an average commuter frustrated with traffic or overcrowded subways. I certainly think the Liberals are vulnerable on this front. And if I were Patrick Brown, I propose a broader transit agenda and then hammer the Liberals on it.....

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Immigration and aging alone ensure that there's a massive chunk of voters that either no memory of, or very limited memory of Mike Harris. I read an article the other day that described most American millenials as being rather befuddled by Bill Clinton. He's seen as an elder statesman. Some of the younger millenials weren't even born when Clinton was in office. And Bill Clinton is at least still in the spotlight. Mike Harris isn't out campaigning.

They may not remember what government was like under Mike Harris, but they've been told abut what he did. People talk. Many know about Walkerton, they know he cancelled Eglinton West, cut TTC and education funding, etc... Even during the last election you'd still hear people say that they knew what the PCs did back in the 90s, and they never want that to happen again.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And if I were Patrick Brown, I propose a broader transit agenda and then hammer the Liberals on it.....

Can Brown do that without alienating the PCs ultra conservative, anti-Toronto base? I wish that party would split in two so we could have two centrist parties in this province.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's just my point. It doesn't really matter whether the opposition is strong or week, we keep voting for the liberals based on partisan ideologies and fear mongering. It'd be one thing if this was helping us, if we were receiving scads of Liberal funding in exchange for our loyalty. We're not. Suckers.

You seem to suggest that people in the GTA vote Liberal out of blind loyalty, and not because they believe a Liberal government will benefit them.

In the 2014 election, what do you think the PCs brought to the table that would've benefited the GTA more than what the Liberals proposed?