[Tewder]

You seem to suggest that people in the GTA vote Liberal out of blind loyalty, and not because they believe a Liberal government will benefit them.

In the 2014 election, what do you think the PCs brought to the table that would've benefited the GTA more than what the Liberals proposed?

The PCs did bring a DRL to the table though, which now seems to be acknowledged as the number one pressing transit requirement for the city and region... so there's that. Have the Liberals even agreed to a DRL yet?

Remember this whole discussion started with somebody's comment that Toronto will never vote PC. I'm not suggesting we should or shouldn't, i'm only questioning this stubborn and damaging notion that Toronto should only ever vote one way. I'm just gobsmacked that people don't see how punitive this actually is for us.

Here's Tory's MO: Promise the moon. Get your plan gutted once or twice a week until there's nothing left. Ride the coattails of somebody else. Deliver air. But that's okay because he's just a $177.499/year cheerleader. Vote Tory!

Hang on, so you'd rather he stubbornly stick to a bad transit plan like Ford? The plan had merits. It's been revised to be a better plan. Where is the problem in this?

 

[minilude]

A policy paper released Thursday by the provincial Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak includes a transit plan that would see all Toronto subways and future light rail lines run by the province through Metrolinx. Streetcar lines and bus routes would be left in the city’s hands.

will this save the operational cost of subways/LRT? if yes I'd support this idea. why not?

 

[kEiThZ]

Can Brown do that without alienating the PCs ultra conservative, anti-Toronto base? I wish that party would split in two so we could have two centrist parties in this province.

Stepher Harper was able to push the federal Tories somewhat to the centre. Enough to win and retain power for a decade. I see no reason that Patrick Brown can't do the same. Now he may fail at it with some gaff like Hudak. But it's certainly a possibility.

And he can do it while appeasing a lot of his anti-Toronto base. For example, he could promise to cap wind farms, a major irritant to a lot of rural communities. That's not going to cost him any urban votes really. There will be no urbanite who votes on wind farms.

Winning seats in the 416 is hard. So if you're a conservative, you aim to convert the 905 which is much more moderate than Toronto. And if you look at the 905 and other smaller centres in Ontario (London, KWC, Ottawa, etc.) transit is an issue everywhere. Pledging to accelerate that investment can win votes. And it's not even really unaffordable. The Liberals are spending $2 billion a year on transit infrastructure with $134 billion in spending. Increasing that to $3 billion would still be just over 2% of the budget. The Conservatives could actually pledge to balance the books and increase transit investment. Wouldn't even take many projects to win more seats. Phase 2 in Ottawa and KWC, London's Shift and the TKL HSR would be enough commitments to win lots of seats.

On topic, I do think we'll see the tories somehow owning RER in the same way John Tory sort of took credit with Smart Track. Just relabel RER from Bramton to Markham.....

 

[gweed123]

will this save the operational cost of subways/LRT? if yes I'd support this idea. why not?

The issue with just uploading the RT network is that it's those lines that help subsidize the money-sucking suburban bus routes. Operationally at least (ignoring capital expenses), Lines 1 and 2 actually turn a profit, AFAIK. If you take that out of the equation, it would mean a greater taxpayer subsidy for the local TTC network.

In my opinion, uploading needs to be an all or nothing thing.

 

[kEiThZ]

They may not remember what government was like under Mike Harris, but they've been told abut what he did. People talk. Many know about Walkerton, they know he cancelled Eglinton West, cut TTC and education funding, etc... Even during the last election you'd still hear people say that they knew what the PCs did back in the 90s, and they never want that to happen again.

You live in Toronto and talk to Torontonians. Most of whom would never vote PC. Would you bet that the rest of the province was like that? I certainly wouldn't.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You live in Toronto and talk to Torontonians. Most of whom would never vote PC. Would you bet that the rest of the province was like that? I certainly wouldn't.

We're talking about Toronto here.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes he did.

View attachment 69720

I've never like the idea of Metrolinx running local transit. The structure of our provincial government and their agencies makes them incredibly opaque, and leave them under direct control of their political masters, to a much greater degree than the TTC. With Metrolinx, we regularly have situations where Liberal party members, behind closed doors, direct Metrolinx to take specific actions. This played out in the UPX fiasco, but that's certainly not the only case.

Because of the structure of Toronto City Council and the TTC, it's far more difficult to have a single politician direct the TTC to make specific changes. Even the mayor doesn't have the level of direct influence over the TTC that the province has over Metrolinx. They can certainly ask, but if the TTC says no then it'll have to play out openly and democratically at Council or the TTC Board.

And speaking anecdotally, having dealt with both agencies and knowing people who regularly interact with them, a common complaint is that Metrolinx's governance and mentality is such that they're designed to serve the provincial government, whereas the TTC is setup to serve Toronto (not the government). For this reason, TTC staff tend to be far more open to public inquirers than Metrolinx.

 

[gweed123]

Winning seats in the 416 is hard. So if you're a conservative, you aim to convert the 905 which is much more moderate than Toronto. And if you look at the 905 and other smaller centres in Ontario (London, KWC, Ottawa, etc.) transit is an issue everywhere. Pledging to accelerate that investment can win votes.

There's a saying which I think applies a lot to transit investment: "Just because 1 woman can make a baby in 9 months doesn't mean 9 women can make a baby in 1 month." There comes a point where simply throwing more money at a project won't make it go any faster.

 

[kEiThZ]

The issue with just uploading the RT network is that it's those lines that help subsidize the money-sucking suburban bus routes. Operationally at least (ignoring capital expenses), Lines 1 and 2 actually turn a profit, AFAIK. If you take that out of the equation, it would mean a greater taxpayer subsidy for the local TTC network.

In my opinion, uploading needs to be an all or nothing thing.

You can't upload the TTC without uploading all the transit services in the GTA. But that is a massively expensive proposition. On the other hand, profitable subways are seeing those profits go towards subsidizing feeder bus services instead of upgrades (like platform screen doors) or expansion. And from a political and regional perspective, the province has massively contributed to the capital costs of the subway network only to have the city view the subway network as their own, which in turns plays into the debates about regional utility of that network (like what we see on Yonge North) and even issues like regional fare structures (fighting fare by distance or integration with GO).

I can easily see the province uploading the subway and LRT network to Metrolinx and leaving the feeder bus service in Toronto's hands with some compensatory subsidy. The subway then becomes a regional asset where regional ridership and regional development goals are considered. Would think suck for Toronto? Probably. But from a regional perspective? Definitely not.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've never like the idea of Metrolinx running local transit. The structure of our provincial government and their agencies makes them incredibly opaque, and leave them under direct control of their political masters, to a much greater degree than the TTC. With Metrolinx, we regularly have situations where Liberal party members, behind closed doors, direct Metrolinx to take specific actions. This played out in the UPX fiasco, but that's certainly not the only case.

Because of the structure of Toronto City Council and the TTC, it's far more difficult to have a single politician direct the TTC to make specific changes. Even the mayor doesn't have the level of direct influence over the TTC that the province has over Metrolinx. They can certainly ask, but if the TTC says no then it'll have to play out openly and democratically at Council or the TTC Board.

Moving on from that, if the TTC becomes a provincial agency, we'll now be in a position where the ruling party can, behind closed doors, direct TTC staff to take very specific actions. A provincial official could direct the TTC to cut specific bus routes and to slash subway services, and there's nothing that local Councillors and residents would be able to do about that. And Queen's Park might not care about your specific bus route.Tough luck.

The current situation with the TTC is that, if the municipal government wanted to make a specific change like that, it would have to go through the TTC Board and publically debated. We'd lose that transparency at the provincial level.

 

[minilude]

The issue with just uploading the RT network is that it's those lines that help subsidize the money-sucking suburban bus routes. Operationally at least (ignoring capital expenses), Lines 1 and 2 actually turn a profit, AFAIK. If you take that out of the equation, it would mean a greater taxpayer subsidy for the local TTC network.

In my opinion, uploading needs to be an all or nothing thing.

does your "all" mean all buses and RTs?

 

[kEiThZ]

We're talking about Toronto here.

Not really. Winning the big chair in Queen's Park involves more than the 416.

There's a saying which I think applies a lot to transit investment: "Just because 1 woman can make a baby in 9 months doesn't mean 9 women can make a baby in 1 month." There comes a point where simply throwing more money at a project won't make it go any faster.

Absolutely. But a lot of the current schedule owes itself to funding constraints imposed on Metrolinx and other transit authorities. There's no reason for example that phase 2 in Ottawa and KWC, and Phase one of London's Shift can't be planned for and tendered in 2 years. Maybe GO RER can't be sped up. But there are other projects which most certainly can be accelerated and are subject entirely to funding constraints.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And from a political and regional perspective, the province has massively contributed to the capital costs of the subway network only to have the city view the subway network as their own, which in turns plays into the debates about regional utility of that network (like what we see on Yonge North) and even issues like regional fare structures (fighting fare by distance...).

This is the exact reason why Metrolinx exists. Their job is to coordinate regional transportation. The Province of Ontario, and by extension Metrolinx, are the only governmental body who possess the power to unilaterally move forward with transit expansion and set policy. Metrolinx and Ontario can unilaterally move forward with Yonge North and fare policy. The TTC doesn't need to be uploaded to achieve that.

If Metrolinx and the Province wanted the YRNS built, it would have been done already. It hasn't been built because of the lack of political will by the Province. What you propose isn't the solution to your problem.

I can easily see the province uploading the subway and LRT network to Metrolinx and leaving the feeder bus service in Toronto's hands with some compensatory subsidy. The subway then becomes a regional asset where regional ridership and regional development goals are considered. Would think suck for Toronto? Probably. But from a regional perspective? Definitely not.

It would suck for everyone, depending on the government involved. The Province can easily, behind close doors, cut transportation services, and municipalities would be helpless to fight it. This is something that cannot happen with the public structure of city councils and the TTC.

 

[GenerationW]

TYSSE had little opposition, all 3 levels of gov't on board, and that took 15 years to complete.

More like 12 from funding announcement to completion, and that will have included at least three years lost because Queen's Park and Ottawa kept putting off a funding timeline, and then another year or more lost because of contractor issues.

 

[kEiThZ]

Moving on from that, if the TTC becomes a provincial agency, we'll now be in a position where the ruling party can, behind closed doors, direct TTC staff to take very specific actions. A provincial official could direct the TTC to cut specific bus routes and to slash subway services, and there's nothing that local Councillors and residents would be able to do about that. And Queen's Park might not care about your specific bus route.Tough luck.

The current situation with the TTC is that, if the municipal government wanted to make a specific change like that, it would have to go through the TTC Board and publically debated. We'd lose that transparency at the provincial level.

How is this any different than GO being able to alter or cut services? Also, it's not that you have no political representation. You have an MPP, who will now have transit advocacy added to his responsibilities.