Palma
Senior Member
that's time problem, that you cannot just get off the UP, walk 30 sec go get to an escalator to go up or down to connect to subway at Union. It was not till I used it over the Family Day weekend that I ralized
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nfitz
Superstar
No, it's quite a walk. The UP platform is west of York Street - half-way to Simcoe. The subway entrance is near Bay. The connection at Dundas West-Bloor would be the quickest, if they completed the tunnel as originally planned.
TheOneAbove
New Member
The important thing going forward is not to get back into old debates about vehicle technology over light rail vehicles or heavy rail vehicles. The important thing is to maintain rights of way so that transit vehicles - of any type - don't mix with intersections or automobile traffic in any way, shape, or form. If that can be done significantly cheaper with LRV's, I'm not against the concept, but if it doesn't save much from heavy rail vehicles or electrified commuter rail vehicles, then there isn't much reason to convert to LRT. I'm increasingly vehicle agnostic.
But the proof is already there that LRV's in the street aren't effective with speed and service levels. It is proven time and time again. E.g. the 34 minutes it takes to go from Union to Spadina on the streetcar in its own right of way stopping at intersections vs. the 10 mins it'll take to go from Union to Spadina on the subway line; or the 30 minutes it takes to go from one end of the St Clair streetcar to the other vs. the 8 minutes with the similar length Sheppard Subway. It isn't the heavy rail technology that makes Sheppard faster it is that there aren't too many stops combined with the no mixing in street traffic.
These examples can be seen in other cities with LRV's in the street, like the recently opened Green line LRT in Minneapolis, which takes an astounding 45 minutes to go 16km from St Paul to Minneapolis. The problem isn't technology, it is where it is located. Street intersections are the death of any rapid transit system, it becomes painfully slow and not competitive when mixed with street traffic.
As long as surface rail becomes completely separated, we should all support it, and we should oppose attempts to commingle rail transit with vehicle intersections and having so many stops that there are boarding stations within several meters of one another.
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Adjei
Senior Member
Is SmartTrack still alive?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The grand vision of SmartTrack from the campaign is dead. What remains will be a good addition to our rapid transit system, but won't have a large impact.
Council, backed by mayor Tory, voted to have it whittled down to adding a 1 or 2 more GO trains per hour with some kind of fare integration. We'll get more details in the fall. 4 to 5 OR 7 to 8 stations might be added to the RER network within Toronto, though many of those stations would've been added as part of the RER plan regardless of SmartTrack
Options C and D on Page 16 of this presentation are what remains on the table. Option D, which is essentially identical to what was planned for RER, is most likely to be picked in my assessment. This is also the option favoured by Metrolinx staff. This is because Option C would add too many stations on the corridor, slowing down regional RER trains, and there isn't enough distance for these regional RER trains to overtake trans serving the new "local" stations each other sadly.
Note that frequencies at and north of Scarborough Station and west of Union would be 9 and 10 minutes respectively. Our chief planner has said that SmartTrack ridership drops dramatically once frequencies dip a little below the 5 minutes mark, having an inconsequential impact on the broader network.
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...oardMtg_RER_and_SmartTrack_Integration_EN.pdf
Palma
Senior Member
Was there not a council vote to request city manager to complete analysis for SmartTrack for options C and D and remove option A and option B. And then all those side motions that got added in by various councillors like Palacio adding a motion to put a stop at Keele and St Clair even though Keesmaat felt it was not a growth area. Guess he has to play to his ward
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Yes and yes
Palma
Senior Member
If those 8 station within Toronto would have been added anyways as part of the RER plan, I still do not understand why Toronto has to pay towards it. Was Toronto asked whether they wanted those stations and if they had the money to fund those stations?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Thankfully councillors did bring up that issue, and I do believe a motion was passed to specifically address that.
nhui06
Active Member
I think Option C is needed if they are indeed moving towards the Scarborough Subway being only 1 stop. The SRT corridor will be cleared for the GO tracks, and Scarborough may be fighting for more stations.
I personally think the Finch and Lawrence stations are needed, but perhaps they can get rid of the Ellesmere stop.
robmausser
Senior Member
This is leftist anti-Tory hogwash.
There is no proof that those stations would have been added without Smarttracks influence.
No one can procure a single document prior to Smarttrack that ever mentioned any stations added within the downtown area, with the exception of Bathurst South as a possible addition to Union Station.
Sure, Metrolinx is looking at more stations downtown, NOW, but there was no evidence they were going to prior to Smarttrack. Full stop.
Even Metrolinx admits this, its in their documentation for absorbing Smarttrack into GO-RER.
They don't want to pay for these additional stations because, they never pitched them.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Shhhh! Some still think those are "SmartTrack" tracks.
...when it's simply GO RER taking over maybe a couple of old RT station locations. With several subway and LRT options not going on the old RT corridor, it's inevitable that GO RER (with the SmartTrack funded infill stations, of course) could cover certain parts of the old RT commuter catchments at specific to-be-discontinued RT stations. If the corridor is freed up, that frees room for RER infill stations (or "SmartTrack stations" if you will) to replace a couple of former RT stations, such as Ellesmere and Lawrence East. But if the RT corridor is not freed up, there's likely no room for RER/ST infill stations.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
Meanwhile...
...in Montreal. See link.
Electric light-rail train network to span Montreal by 2020
Seems to be what SmartTrack should have been, with light-rail.
From this link:
Where would Montreal's 24 new light rail stations be located?
Proposed rail would connect Montreal, West Island, South Shore and North Shore
...in Montreal. See link.
Electric light-rail train network to span Montreal by 2020
It will be the biggest transit project since the Montreal métro, but this one will be built and mostly funded by a pension fund.
The Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, the province’s pension fund manager, unveiled on Friday a light-rail network it intends to build, with the first stations coming online in 2020.
“Every time you take this train, you’ll be paying into your retirement,” said Michael Sabia, the CEO of the Caisse.
Answering decades of demands for an airport link from downtown, the $5.5-billion Réseau électrique métropolitain will be a vast network linking the South Shore, the West Island and Deux-Montagnes to both the airport and the downtown core.
“What we’re announcing today is the most important public transit project in Montreal in the last 50 years,” said Macky Tall, the president of CDPQ Infra, the Caisse’s infrastructure arm.
Leaving from Central Station, the 67-kilometre network will use the track running through the Mount Royal tunnel, taking over the Deux-Montagnes line — which already runs electric trains — from the Agence métropolitaine de transport. New tracks will be built over the new Champlain Bridge, and link to the South Shore, ending near the intersection of Highways 30 and 10 in Brossard. Two other dedicated tracks will be built, branching off from the Deux-Montagnes line, where Highway 13 meets Highway 40. One track will head to Trudeau airport, with a stop in the Technoparc in St-Laurent. Another will follow Highway 40 toward Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue. The existing Vaudreuil-Dorion train line won’t be affected by the project.
Light rail trains are smaller and carry fewer passengers, but the service will be more frequent than the current AMT service, Tall said.
This is not the pension manager’s first foray into public transit. The Caisse is one of the builders of the Canada Line, a train that links Vancouver’s airport to the downtown area and the suburb of Richmond. It was built in time for the 2010 Olympic Games.
However, Sabia admitted this project represents a much greater risk, since the Caisse is the principal investor and has to recoup both its capital investment and its operating costs. But he’s confident the Caisse will achieve “market competitive returns” on the project.
“We are taking the traffic risk here,” Sabia said. “This is unusual because generally, it’s governments that take that risk.”
Mayor Denis Coderre, right, listens as Michael Sabia, president and CEO of the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, describes public transit projects for the South Shore and West Island at a press conference at the Caisse’s headquarters in Montreal on Friday, April 22, 2016. John Mahoney / MONTREAL GAZETTE
Matti Siemiatycki, an associate professor of urban planning at the University of Toronto, said this is a first for Canada, so it’s an untested funding model.
“Internationally, there have been privately funded and financed commuter rail lines, but in most cases, they don’t recover their operating costs, let alone their capital costs,” Siemiatycki said.
He said because it has holdings in engineering, train manufacturing and train operating companies, the pension fund does have an advantage. But he’s not sure it will be enough.
“It’s possible they can realize economies, but it doesn’t take away the fact that most transportation systems in North America are not recovering their operating costs, let alone their capital costs, so that will be the Caisse’s challenge,” he said.
Sabia said the Caisse intends for most of the revenue to come from fares, which he said will be similar to the ones currently charged by the AMT.
“That’s a big chunk of it but, of course, as you know municipalities today have made a public policy decision to encourage people to use public transit,” Sabia said. “We would expect that current practice would continue and contribute to the overall financing of the project.”
Because the trains will be fully automated, Sabia said the operating cost of the network will be low.
The Caisse, which has a real-estate investment division, will also try to recoup some of the investment through development along the line, but Sabia said the bulk of the revenue will come from ridership. The Caisse expects a daily ridership of 150,000, compared with 85,000 that currently use the Deux-Montagnes line, the 747 airport bus and buses across the Champlain Bridge.
The Caisse has promised trains will leave every three to six minutes from the South Shore and every six to 12 minutes on the West Island and Deux Montagnes Line, for the duration of its 20-hour operation schedule from 5 a.m. to 1:20 a.m. The Caisse estimates it will take 40 minutes to take the train from either Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue or Deux-Montagnes to downtown. It will take 30 minutes to go from Central Station to the airport. It will take between 15 and 20 minutes to travel from Brossard to downtown.
Tall said the decision to follow Highway 40 was made because of work going on in the Turcot Interchange. That work would have prevented crews from building dedicated lines for the next five years. He said building along that corridor would also cost $1 billion more because it would require a track dedicated to passenger traffic.
The thorny issue of parking remains unsolved, however. Currently, many stations along the Deux-Montagnes line are over capacity and there is no space to build new parking spots.
Tall said the Caisse will speak with municipalities about this issue and hopes to come up with a solution.
Seems to be what SmartTrack should have been, with light-rail.
From this link:
Where would Montreal's 24 new light rail stations be located?
Proposed rail would connect Montreal, West Island, South Shore and North Shore
Here's where the train would stop:
West Island
The rail would connect municipalities along Highway 40 of the West Island.
The first four stations listed below would be newly built.
Airport route
Intersecting close to Highways 13 and 40, the rail line would give commuters access to Montreal's airport.
Montreal
Stations along the new rail will span across Montreal from the Saint-Laurent borough to Nuns Island.
North Shore
The northern section of the rail would have four stops in the municipalities of Île-Bigras, Laval and Deux-Montagnes.
The North Shore is the only portion of the proposed project that would have parking options at all of its stations.
South Shore
The light rail will connect to Montreal's South Shore by the Champlain Bridge on Highway 15.
The three stations are located in Brossard:
There is also a fourth potential station.
West Island
The rail would connect municipalities along Highway 40 of the West Island.
The first four stations listed below would be newly built.
- Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue
- Kirkland
- Pointe-Claire
- Des Sources
- Sunnybrooke
- Roxboro-Pierrefonds
Airport route
Intersecting close to Highways 13 and 40, the rail line would give commuters access to Montreal's airport.
- Autoroute 13
- Technoparc Saint-Laurent
- Dorval Airport
Montreal
Stations along the new rail will span across Montreal from the Saint-Laurent borough to Nuns Island.
- Bois-Franc
- Du Ruisseau
- Montpellier
- Mont-Royal
- Correspondence Highway 40
- Canora
- Central Station
- Nuns Island
- Edouard-Montpetit (University of Montreal)
- McGill
- Bridge-Wellington
- Du Havre
North Shore
The northern section of the rail would have four stops in the municipalities of Île-Bigras, Laval and Deux-Montagnes.
The North Shore is the only portion of the proposed project that would have parking options at all of its stations.
- Île-Bigras
- Ste-Dorothée
- Grand-Moulin
- Deux-Montagnes
South Shore
The light rail will connect to Montreal's South Shore by the Champlain Bridge on Highway 15.
The three stations are located in Brossard:
- Panama
- Du Quartier
- Rive-Sud
There is also a fourth potential station.
- Chevrier
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salsa
Senior Member
Hopefully it will get built and in a timely manner, unlike Transit City.
44 North
Senior Member
Whoa, this sounds amazing. Not to mention a heluva lot more interesting than SmartTrack. I was thinking this is a tram-train proposal, considering it says "light rail". But it also says fully automated. So I'm guessing this is similar to ALRT/ART/Skytrain-type systems? In other words: smaller and more agile vehicles than subway, but identical service?
Whatever this plan is, what I'm reading makes me think of the proposed GO-ALRT plan of decades past - which IMO was much more subway/metro-like than our currently evolving RER/ST plan (i.e 12-car two-storey premium service trains run entirely on existing surface lines).