[ssiguy2]

Toronto has, by far, the most routes, most stations, and best service of the GO Rail network and yet ridership in the city is beyond lousy. This is due, nearly exclusively, because of the high fares and the TTC offers a far more affordable service. People are willing {and often due to financial situations forced} to spend much more time and energy getting to their work on the TTC than GO due to this. If a standard TTC ticket also got you on any GO Train within the City itself, GO Rail ridership in Toronto would increase ten-fold overnight.

This report may indeed be correct because Torontonians have shown no inclination of paying high GO fares and there is no reason to think that will change. More GO station in Toronto would draw few new riders and slow 905 commutes making less appealing to them. It's all gong to come down to the price as RER could be a failure of monumental proportions or a system with higher ridership than all the subway lines combined.

To me this report, using current GO fares, makes perfect sense................no one in Toronto will use RER and the people who do in the 905 will see their travel times increase. As long as GO is more expensive than the TTC, people won't take it.

 

[adrianaliu]

Toronto has, by far, the most routes, most stations, and best service of the GO Rail network and yet ridership in the city is beyond lousy. This is due, nearly exclusively, because of the high fares and the TTC offers a far more affordable service. People are willing {and often due to financial situations forced} to spend much more time and energy getting to their work on the TTC than GO due to this. If a standard TTC ticket also got you on any GO Train within the City itself, GO Rail ridership in Toronto would increase ten-fold overnight.

This report may indeed be correct because Torontonians have shown no inclination of paying high GO fares and there is no reason to think that will change. More GO station in Toronto would draw few new riders and slow 905 commutes making less appealing to them. It's all gong to come down to the price as RER could be a failure of monumental proportions or a system with higher ridership than all the subway lines combined.

To me this report, using current GO fares, makes perfect sense................no one in Toronto will use RER and the people who do in the 905 will see their travel times increase. As long as GO is more expensive than the TTC, people won't take it.

i think they can get away w making rer slightly more costly than ttc. also consider that many 905 trains will bypass toronto stations so it shouldnt really affect 905ers alot, the service patters along the lines will vary. I think they need to add more stations within the 416 to enhance connections with other modes (mt dennis, downsview park, liberty village, caledonia, east harbour, gerrard square) but some of the proposed stations are unessecary (st clair west) either way i think we should ignore most of the report since it assumes that fares wont change. and yeah they gotta stop calling this smarttrack they only do that because it creates the illusion that it will be a ttc line with subway like headways, hopefully rer will be as close to that as possible (lower fares due to electrification, 15 min or better frequencies inside the urban area), but thinking that this will become a surface subway rather than a regional rail network is a pipe dream.

 

[TOareaFan]

^the express nature of some trains was part of the key assumptions...it is shown a few posts up.

 

[amnesiajune]

And did they factor in electrification? Surely the improved speed from electrification would offset the extra 1-2 minutes required to stop at these additional stops.

No, and they didn't factor in any changes to the fare structure either. These new stations only make sense if they're a part of the TTC network, and everyone is well aware of that, but it's hard for Metrolinx to study a fare system that's still largely up in the air.

 

[Tuscani01]

So reading into the Metrolinx report, essentially:

1) RER will not benefit Toronto at all under today's fare system
1a) RER could benefit Toronto under a new fare system
1b) RER will slow down 905'ers and increase the number of drivers on our roads
2) SmartTrack could be useful to Toronto if it uses TTC's fare system
2a) SmartTrack could be useless to Toronto if it uses GO's fare system
2b) SmartTrack will slow down 905'ers and increase the number of drivers on our roads

Seems like an odd report, considering so much is still left up in the air. The media has jumped onto it as an anti-SmartTrack report, yet there are still so many unknown variables that can alter the results of this study.

 

[amnesiajune]

SmartTrack isn't a service. It's a concept that exists purely to bring Toronto's transit needs into the RER discussion. The concept was these trains are running throughout Toronto, and they should be integrated with the TTC network to provide better service to Toronto residents. We'll never see a train that says "SmartTrack" on the side. What we will see, hopefully very soon, is Go Transit service that connects to many of Toronto's busiest bus & streetcar routes, and gets filled with Toronto residents who transfer to/from those routes without paying any extra fare. And the professional complainers will say "this isn't SmartTrack, John Tory lied to us!!", but that's perfectly fine because what matters is the service itself.

 

[crs1026]

And the professional complainers will say "this isn't SmartTrack, John Tory lied to us!!", but that's perfectly fine because what matters is the service itself.

Well, it isn't, and he did, but that's political commentary, whiny or otherwise, and I agree it's a digression.

RER should have the right number of stops within the 416, but stops (416 or wherever) should be optimised to attract the maximum number of riders and take the maximum number of cars off the roads. RER can't stop everywhere and maximise this benefit. And, Toronto has to solve its internal transit issues without seeking the generosity of the 905.

Looming over all of this is the reality that Toronto is undertaxing its citizens (relative to its valid needs) and expecting others to chip in. ST is definitely a "freebie" sought from the Province. And, to read the ridership numbers, not a very effective one at that.

To quote a Foo Fighter - let it die.

- Paul

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

SmartTrack isn't a service. It's a concept that exists purely to bring Toronto's transit needs into the RER discussion. The concept was these trains are running throughout Toronto, and they should be integrated with the TTC network to provide better service to Toronto residents. We'll never see a train that says "SmartTrack" on the side. What we will see, hopefully very soon, is Go Transit service that connects to many of Toronto's busiest bus & streetcar routes, and gets filled with Toronto residents who transfer to/from those routes without paying any extra fare. And the professional complainers will say "this isn't SmartTrack, John Tory lied to us!!", but that's perfectly fine because what matters is the service itself.

Since when did Smarttrack morph from something tangibly distinct and separate (subway like service with x number of stations, etc) to just a "concept" that is GO-branded RER? That reads like a press-release.

So reading into the Metrolinx report, essentially:
---
Seems like an odd report, considering so much is still left up in the air. The media has jumped onto it as an anti-SmartTrack report, yet there are still so many unknown variables that can alter the results of this study.

That sounds like a report that is essentially hedging the bets. Good luck seeing it play out though, given the unwillingness for Metrolinx/Province to pay up the funding delta for integration, and the fundamental clientele for GO (suburban). Anyone want to make any bets whether they want to risk existing 905 users over potential 416 users to be?

AoD

 

[Hopkins123]

Sad when your choices in the next election are either a Dumbtrack or Edsel Ford.

In the beginning, I had such high hopes for what Tory could accomplish. What the hell happened?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sad when your choices in the next election are either a Dumbtrack or Edsel Ford.
In the beginning, I had such high hopes for what Tory could accomplish. What the hell happened?

Transit planning by politics playing to its' own logical conclusion.

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

Since when did Smarttrack morph from something tangibly distinct and separate (subway like service with x number of stations, etc) to just a "concept" that is GO-branded RER?

The day after the election. This is how politics works. You promise the stars and give people the moon. If Tory had said "I'll negotiate with the province to get TTC fares for Go Trains and a few new stations", nobody would've cared.

Anyone want to make any bets whether they want to risk existing 905 users over potential 416 users to be?

If we're betting, I think the province is likely to use transit project funding as a vehicle for it's own priorities, just like it has in the past. The York University subway extension was a vehicle for the connection to York Region's BRT. Eglinton Crosstown was a vehicle for Presto. The province's wish list isn't terribly long - the Yonge extension, fare integration and connecting the TTC and Mississauga Transitway - but the city's wish list is a lot longer - a Don Mills/Pape/Queen subway, Scarborough subway/LRT/whatever, Eglinton East, Sheppard East and RER service within Toronto.

 

[Cobra]

GO will have to run Express trains (bypassing Smarttrack stations) and local trains (every stops) to fix the issues. That's what Paris RER does already

 

[amnesiajune]

GO will have to run Express trains (bypassing Smarttrack stations) and local trains (every stops) to fix the issues. That's what Paris RER does already

Paris RER doesn't run true "express" trains. Some trains will bypass stops but they don't have a separate set of tracks. And they still manage to push through RER service at 2-minute headways on some parts of the system, which is more frequent than the Yonge subway during rush hour

 

[Tuscani01]

Paris RER doesn't run true "express" trains. Some trains will bypass stops but they don't have a separate set of tracks. And they still manage to push through RER service at 2-minute headways on some parts of the system, which is more frequent than the Yonge subway during rush hour

AND you can use the RER with the same ticket you purchased from the Metro.

 

[Cobra]

Paris RER doesn't run true "express" trains. Some trains will bypass stops but they don't have a separate set of tracks. And they still manage to push through RER service at 2-minute headways on some parts of the system, which is more frequent than the Yonge subway during rush hour

AND you can use the RER with the same ticket you purchased from the Metro.

So it's doable for Metrolinx to solve the issues.