[crs1026]

Whether you like Smarttrack or not, yesterday's debate and decision moved Council ahead, in that it's now clear that there will have to be a discussion on raising the money, and that decision is not far off.

The question is whether that coming debate will finance ST, or whether it will open the doors to financing all of the even bigger projects we know Toronto needs.... DRL being the most important of all.

The most charitable way to look at this would be, this will be the training and hardening "small steps" that will enable Council to find its resolve and will help the taxpayer to get over its resistance to new taxes. And the measures found will be selected to deliver an ongoing, sustainable cash flow dedicated to transit.

The more pessimistic viewpoint is that having given itself one transit project to point to as "action", Council will run away from any further fundraising and defer any further commitments until after the next civic elections - at the earliest. And the measures chosen will be minimalist and not sufficient - perhaps in the belief that crying poor and doing a little more political armtwisting will glean a better deal from the province.

Having seen our mayor in action, I'm leaning to the pessimistic viewpoint. The most important thing to watch as ST is funded is whether the debate includes 'what's next'.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Whether you like Smarttrack or not, yesterday's debate and decision moved Council ahead, in that it's now clear that there will have to be a discussion on raising the money, and that decision is not far off.
- Paul

Very well put...and of course, this decision was just confirming the wish to buy after window shopping. Once the vendor asks for cash, credit source, or a more affordable choice of item, the real decisions have to be made.

Is Tory prepared (and let's face it, Tory is yanking the chains of a good number of councillors) to drop the Scarborough Subway to get credit approval to pay for ST and more? There are also sunk costs now pending on whatever decision is imminently made to finance this. Obviously Toronto can't afford all that's been ordered, some of the choices are going to have to be returned, with the sunk costs non-negotiable.

And then there's the issue of fare structure on ST....

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm going to be Devil's Advocate on this point, bear with me: The Province *played* Tory knowing how vain the man is believing his own Münchhausen delusions of grandeur.

I don't think he was played - given who's who from his election campaign onward, I'd say it was all lined up from the get go. The province have a vested interest in getting the inner burbs right; Tory can use and require provincial support for the same.

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

Obviously Toronto can't afford all that's been ordered, some of the choices are going to have to be returned, with the sunk costs non-negotiable.

That's not obvious at all. Toronto is a huge city with a yearly GDP of over $300 billion. Just 1% that over ten years can pay for SmartTrack/RER/whatever, the DRL, the SSE, all four LRT lines planned or under construction and more. Whether Toronto wants to pay for all of that is another question, but if the political motivation is there then there's more than enough money to pay for it.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'd say it was all lined up from the get go.

I didn't want to go there, but absolutely, it fits. I still have to keep coming back to working the logic of whether this is pushed or pulled. There's strings in the there somewhere...he might be a brilliant manipulator. His corporate record appears to indicate that. Or the strings are manipulating him...

Toronto is a huge city with a yearly GDP of over $300 billion. Just 1% that over ten years can pay for SmartTrack/RER/whatever, the DRL, the SSE, all four LRT lines planned or under construction and more.

Indeed! That's why we're building the space elevator to Mars!

Just whose money are you talking about, and how exactly do you think it can suddenly materialize? Sell-offs? I'm for that, with caveats. Tory claims he isn't. Tax increase? Tory claims he isn't.

But hey! With that elevator to Mars, (MarsTrack) we can charge visiting Martians for the privilege of coming here. That should do it, and assess them a transfer charge for relocating here should they move permanently.

 

[amnesiajune]

Note where I said "if the political motivation is there".

 

[Rainforest]

Whether you like Smarttrack or not, yesterday's debate and decision moved Council ahead, in that it's now clear that there will have to be a discussion on raising the money, and that decision is not far off.

The question is whether that coming debate will finance ST, or whether it will open the doors to financing all of the even bigger projects we know Toronto needs.... DRL being the most important of all.

The most charitable way to look at this would be, this will be the training and hardening "small steps" that will enable Council to find its resolve and will help the taxpayer to get over its resistance to new taxes. And the measures found will be selected to deliver an ongoing, sustainable cash flow dedicated to transit.

The more pessimistic viewpoint is that having given itself one transit project to point to as "action", Council will run away from any further fundraising and defer any further commitments until after the next civic elections - at the earliest. And the measures chosen will be minimalist and not sufficient - perhaps in the belief that crying poor and doing a little more political armtwisting will glean a better deal from the province.

Having seen our mayor in action, I'm leaning to the pessimistic viewpoint. The most important thing to watch as ST is funded is whether the debate includes 'what's next'.

- Paul

Good point.

My view is more optimistic though. The gridlock is here to stay, the capacity problem of Line 1 is well known, thus the push to build DRL will not disappear just because RER gets 6 more stations.

 

[Burnt creek]

So you don't see a problem with Tory agreeing to pay for the O&M of LRT lines (previously paid for by the province) in exchange of capital cash for Smarttrack???

I dont. No one know how long the the maintence costs were going to be coverered for. All it takes is a change in govt, a slowing of economic growth and a resulting budgetary crunch for a provincing government to say, nope, its time to off load these cost. But when it come to one time capital costs, thats not as easy to do.

Plus, The voter wont notice if a provincial govt offloads thing like on going maintence cost. But the voter will notice if a govt cancels a transit project.

 

[salsa]

Wasn't there an announcement there just a few months ago? What already-announced thing are they looking to re-announce?

 

[crs1026]

Wasn't there an announcement there just a few months ago? What already-announced thing are they looking to re-announce?

It has been a while since the last re-announcement. I was wondering when the next one would be.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

Wasn't there an announcement there just a few months ago? What already-announced thing are they looking to re-announce?

Perhaps this is about the 4th track on Lake Shore East? That specific piece wasn't included in the SmartTrack announcement but it is in the RER TPAP meetings and would have a sizable impact on service from that side of the city.

Tracks seem to work best in pairs for bidirectional traffic.

 

[TransitBart]

Tracks seem to work best in pairs for bidirectional traffic.

I may fry for this. Duh.

 

[salsa]

 

[Amare]

I wonder how much Tory paid to have Anne Marie Aikins mention Smarttrack as part of her twitter post. Especially since the man offers to pay for the province's transit initiatives each and every time he gets the chance to

 

[robmausser]

Something I found interesting, remember the Smarttrack Spur idea?

I really was not a huge fan of it, however, one of the reasons that it was claimed unfeasible was it was not possible to make the curve after Ellesmere.

However, I just wanted to point out, that freight trains already do turn there.

I just find it weird that people keep saying "subways, RER" cant make this turn, yet a freight train can?

There is already a heavy rail spur in that location.