[cplchanb]

I do wonder if TTC metrolinx or whoever will be in charge when its built have actually done a cost analysis of whether they can sustain this line under the current TTC $3 (or future equivalent) fare. Sure they say now that it will be completely integrated with the rest of the network for a single payment but this is more of a commuter rail transit rather than urban high frequency heavy rail.
Ive been to many cities that have this type of RER and they either have a premium to the base fare or they charge by distance. I will be amazed if they can run all their
services and charge only a single fare payment and still make a sizeable profit that is enough for maintenance and future expansion/upgrades.

 

[mdrejhon]

but this is more of a commuter rail transit rather than urban high frequency heavy rail.

On that subject, it's certainly possible SmartTrack will be using European style EMUs, as Transport Canada appears willing to consider waiving heavy rail FRA requirements.

Transport Canada has recently indicated that they may be more flexible with the FRA structural strength requirements, which might open opportunities for GO to study a broader range of European and Asian EMUs and DMUs. Specifically, they stated their intent to require new GO vehicles to either:
 Meet FRA structure strength and crash worthiness for passenger cars, or
 Maintain temporal separation from freight and heavy rail passenger traffic, or
 Operate under some form of Positive Train Control (PTC) signalling system

-- Metrolinx purchased a large amount of the GO train network enabling good temporal separation options (entire RER corridor ownership)
-- Metrolinx also appear planning to install Positive Train Control signalling for the electrified segments of RER.

That means they can go above-and-beyond Transport Canada indications by satisfying not one, but simultaneously two proposed bullets necessary to permit non-FRA trains, under this very preliminary guidance from Transport Canada to Metrolinx.

This potentially satisfies Transport Canada in letting Metrolinx operate Euro style SmartTrack trains -- like the S-Bahn train in Germany or similiar trains like the Stadler KISS trainset recently pictured in several Metrolinx PowerPoint graphics (here, here). Although there is no news yet, all government PDF/PowerPoints point to SmartTrack probably using less-heavy trainsets. Heavier than a streetcar, but not as heavy as a classic heavy rail passenger train. Bombardier makes some of those too, stuff we're not yet allowed to run in regular rail corridors, until waivered.

Connect the dots, and you're right. It's all headed in this direction.
SmartTrack probably isn't classic heavy rail, even if not an LRT.

 

[ehlow]

I do wonder if TTC metrolinx or whoever will be in charge when its built have actually done a cost analysis of whether they can sustain this line under the current TTC $3 (or future equivalent) fare. Sure they say now that it will be completely integrated with the rest of the network for a single payment but this is more of a commuter rail transit rather than urban high frequency heavy rail.
Ive been to many cities that have this type of RER and they either have a premium to the base fare or they charge by distance. I will be amazed if they can run all their
services and charge only a single fare payment and still make a sizeable profit that is enough for maintenance and future expansion/upgrades.

The GO/TTC fares & fare system might be completely different over the next 10 years anyways.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Mostly political fodder, but in the long run it will turn out being GO RER with the province "agreeing" to add a few additional infill stations. But that's not so much a bad thing since Metrolinx has been very closed-minded about adding infill stations on their network.

SmartTrack is a good thing. Before the election, Metrolinx was very much focused on providing service to the 905 while dismissing the needs of suburban 416 transit users.

This is something that Transit City failed to realize as well. Transit City tried to treat the arterial streets of Toronto's suburbs as something that needed to be 'fixed' and converted into Eglinton, St. Clair or Bloor. While good for local transit and uses, it really doesn't solve anything for local residents wanting to use transit to reach downtown offices as they still faced >40 minute commutes, multiple interchanges and multiple transit modes (bus-->LRT-->subway).

Tory's mandate for transit and his SmartTrack plan has forced Metrolinx's hand in paying attention to suburban Toronto needs now as well. Without it, I highly doubt Metrolinx would be looking at infill stations in the 416 for the near-term future. Nor do I think fare integration to make our commuter lines actually be affordable for transit riders in the 416 would be considered right now if not for SmartTrack.

Conceptually it is great. We just need the powers at be to realize the Eglinton spur of SmartTrack is ridiculously expensive and the Scarborough Subway Extension is unnecessary and cannibalized by SmartTrack.

 

[Amare]

Tory's mandate for transit and his SmartTrack plan has forced Metrolinx's hand in paying attention to suburban Toronto needs now as well. Without it, I highly doubt Metrolinx would be looking at infill stations in the 416 for the near-term future. Nor do I think fare integration to make our commuter lines actually be affordable for transit riders in the 416 would be considered right now if not for SmartTrack.

Conceptually it is great. We just need the powers at be to realize the Eglinton spur of SmartTrack is ridiculously expensive and the Scarborough Subway Extension is unnecessary and cannibalized by SmartTrack.

Very interesting and valid points that you raise there. When I think about it, you're definitely correct that the province probably would not have considered infill stations, so in that sense alone it can be seen as a small win already.

As for the Eglinton spur, that makes absolutely 0 sense to implement it with the "Smarttrack" network. If the ROW was still available, it would make more sense since I think it would be great at connecting various employment hubs and transit hubs along Eglinton. Too bad RoFo came along and sold it all off.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It was DoFo responsible for that actually.

Yes, mdrejohn has written long posts about how it would be excellent for the region if we could feasibly create a new commuter rail corridor along Eglinton West. Personally, I find the idea of a new corridor very attractive in connecting Toronto directly with Mississauga City Centre and Square One. I am certain that over the next 30 years, Mississauga's core will be looking like a true downtown hub, maybe not as entertaining and vibrant as anything in Toronto but existent nonetheless. It also makes the Hurontario LRT a much much more useful line and transit corridor.

Problem is, the section along Eglinton between ACC and Mt. Dennis probably does not have enough ridership to sustain even a BRT. Serving it with an underground tunnel and multiple stations is an even bigger overkill than the Sheppard Extension or Finch Subway. The only way I can see it working is with an alignment to ACC via Kitchener Line and Pearson. Once ACC is reached, the corridor can turn and be extended any number of ways to Square One.

 

[robmausser]

It was DoFo responsible for that actually.

Its funny that DoFo sold it off, and now the feasibility will come back saying that only the extension of the Eglinton LRT makes sense, as their isn't room for Heavy Rail in that corridor now.

Oh the irony.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Its funny that DoFo sold it off, and now the feasibility will come back saying that only the extension of the Eglinton LRT makes sense, as their isn't room for Heavy Rail in that corridor now.

Oh the irony.

And not just any Eglinton LRT, but an in-median LRT as well.

The trenched/elevated option using the corridor is now gone as well.

Watch the Fords demand Eglinton West be tunneled too!

 

[sixrings]

And not just any Eglinton LRT, but an in-median LRT as well.

The trenched/elevated option using the corridor is now gone as well.

Watch the Fords demand Eglinton West be tunneled too!

Theres no reason a ROW LRT on Eglinton West with very limited stop spacing (jane, Scarlette, Royal York, Islington, Kipling, Martin Grove, Mississauga business park) could not be almost as fast since there are very little lights on this section of Eglinton. It could be done with far fewer dollars. Dont let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

 

[Rainforest]

Theres no reason a ROW LRT on Eglinton West with very limited stop spacing (jane, Scarlette, Royal York, Islington, Kipling, Martin Grove, Mississauga business park) could not be almost as fast since there are very little lights on this section of Eglinton. It could be done with far fewer dollars. Dont let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Indeed. If we are not too dogmatic, and do not insist that every LRT corridor must be designed to fit the same paradigm; then we can build the Eglinton West LRT section in such way that it achieves 80% of the heavy rail function, for 25% of the cost.

Street-median is not a big problem for that section of Eglinton West. It has wide distances between traffic lights, and half of the existing traffic lights favor Eglinton traffic anyway.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Tory's mandate for transit and his SmartTrack plan has forced Metrolinx's hand in paying attention to suburban Toronto needs now as well. Without it, I highly doubt Metrolinx would be looking at infill stations in the 416 for the near-term future. Nor do I think fare integration to make our commuter lines actually be affordable for transit riders in the 416 would be considered right now if not for SmartTrack.

I think it's the opposite, actually. Metrolinx's work on fare integration is already well underway (quietly, perhaps, but underway nonetheless) and it's Toronto/TTC that have dragged their heels on this kind of stuff (e.g. Presto, which is essential to doing it) in the past few years.

As the relief study shows, Metrolinx is better looking at the big picture. Toronto's DRL work so far seems very narrow in comparison to what they've produced because while Toronto and TTC certainly compare about improving capacity etc., their concerns are much more specific to Toronto, downtown and their own riders/taxpayers as opposed to the regional network.

Given that SmartTrack piggybacks on the pre-existing RER plan and dares to go across the border into Markham (the sort of thing that has produced much consternation in regards to the two ends of Line 1), it's really more indicative of Toronto coming around to Metrolinx's way of thinking, rather than the other way around.

 

[BurlOak]

And not just any Eglinton LRT, but an in-median LRT as well.

The trenched/elevated option using the corridor is now gone as well.

Watch the Fords demand Eglinton West be tunneled too!

For the elevated option, the line would have to cross to the South of Eglinton just west of Kipling. It would then stay on the south until just west of Martin Grove. Being on the south side actually makes it easier to get under the hydro corridor power lines since the line could drop to at/near grade for this portion. On the north, there is Willowridge Road which means the transit line would have to remain elevated and the clearance to the hydro corridor may have been a concern ( https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6747175,-79.5626743,833m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en ). The line would probably cross Eglinton once more and cross under the 427 at grade through the existing bridge end spans.

No doubt that selling those lands was a mistake, but probably more because of the potential NIMBY's would might complain, and not because it makes the preferable option of elevated not technically feasible.

 

[Amare]

No doubt that selling those lands was a mistake, but probably more because of the potential NIMBY's would might complain, and not because it makes the preferable option of elevated not technically feasible.

Trust me those "NIMBY's" along Eglinton between Royal York and Kipling have absolutely no idea what's going on around their own neighborhood (but they do hold some power since they're a wealthy bunch). Most of them had no idea Eglinton was sold off until developers started putting fences around the properties. Heck they probably still dont know Eglinton was sold off, all they know is that they are building townhouses on Eglinton because "the city let them" which is technically true but not in the way they are thinking.

But in either case, Eglinton along this stretch is a lost opportunity because of the previous short-sighted regime and there's no way Smarttrack will work along this stretch as the upcoming study will illustrate.

 

[smably]

LOL: https://twitter.com/goldsbie/status/613853102555418624

"SmartTrack actually is the same thing as Regional Express Rail," says the City's transportation planner in introducing the project.

 

[Amare]

LOL: https://twitter.com/goldsbie/status/613853102555418624

If he doesnt already, Tory must absolutely dispise everything about Keesmaat right now. This is going to play out just like the Ford/Webster saga with Tory doing everything in his power to get Keesmaat out of office. I hope Keesmaat has contacted a lawyer and started prepping for a wrongful dismal case.

But at least she's telling the truth. If Tory thought that he could magically buy up land adjacent to GO corridors, and run his own little sub-sufrace subway network than he's living in fantasy land. But then again, he thought the Eglinton lands were still available because Google Maps said so.