[Adjei]

I don't think she's the transportation planner.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The transportation planner who said this would've worked for our City Planning decision, which Keesmatt is cheif of. But the planner who said this is not Keesmatt. They're probably a beaurcrat out of the public spotlight

 

[crs1026]

If he doesnt already, Tory must absolutely dispise everything about Keesmaat right now. This is going to play out just like the Ford/Webster saga with Tory doing everything in his power to get Keesmaat out of office. I hope Keesmaat has contacted a lawyer and started prepping for a wrongful dismal case.

But at least she's telling the truth. If Tory thought that he could magically buy up land adjacent to GO corridors, and run his own little sub-sufrace subway network than he's living in fantasy land. But then again, he thought the Eglinton lands were still available because Google Maps said so.

My 'conspiracy theory' of how the Eglinton leg of ST got into Tory's agenda is that it puts a "subway" (a buried heavy transit line, for the purists) right through the Ford heartland. Which gave Tory the ability to say to the hard core Ford supporters "your guy never even promised you a subway, but I did". And it puts the Fords in a ridiculous position of being unable to criticise Tory on their own turf - would the Fords turn down a subway and argue in favour of an LRT? In their own Ward?

The complication has become: if the experts debunk this plan, as opposed to his political opponents, then the Fords can sit back and say "you see, even we don't propose the silly stuff". So it's critical to Tory that no one point out that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes. I expect gag orders to be the business of City Hall on this one.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

If he doesnt already, Tory must absolutely dispise everything about Keesmaat right now. This is going to play out just like the Ford/Webster saga with Tory doing everything in his power to get Keesmaat out of office. I hope Keesmaat has contacted a lawyer and started prepping for a wrongful dismal case.

But at least she's telling the truth. If Tory thought that he could magically buy up land adjacent to GO corridors, and run his own little sub-sufrace subway network than he's living in fantasy land. But then again, he thought the Eglinton lands were still available because Google Maps said so.

My 'conspiracy theory' of how the Eglinton leg of ST got into Tory's agenda is that it puts a "subway" (a buried heavy transit line, for the purists) right through the Ford heartland. Which gave Tory the ability to say to the hard core Ford supporters "your guy never even promised you a subway, but I did". And it puts the Fords in a ridiculous position of being unable to criticise Tory on their own turf - would the Fords turn down a subway and argue in favour of an LRT? In their own Ward?

The complication has become: if the experts debunk this plan, as opposed to his political opponents, then the Fords can sit back and say "you see, even we don't propose the silly stuff". So it's critical to Tory that no one point out that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes. I expect gag orders to be the business of City Hall on this one.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is no conspiracy. The ST plan was copied exactly from a flawed transit report that I can't recall the name of at the moment.

 

[Edward Skira]

Strategic Regional Research Alliance
http://www.srraresearch.org

Map of proposal. Full plan PDF attached.

 

[Soop]

http://stevemunro.ca/2015/06/25/the-vanishing-relevance-of-smarttrack/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can't help but feel like we've all been conned by Mr. Tory. He basically repackaged the GO RER proposal and presented it as his own, new transit solution. It's looking like whatever happens with RER would've happened regardless of Tory's, ummm... cooperation.

SmartTrack was the centrepiece of Tory's campaign. I don't want to say he was elected on false pretenses, but there is something very unsettling about all this.

I'll wait to see the SmartTrack evaluations in the fall before getting too upset over this.

 

[sixrings]

I don't think "we've all been conned" is accurate. Many people were skeptical. Many people like me thought itwas RER with a few extra stops, better buut not a DRL replacement. Then there are theones who letthemselvesbelieve this was possible. t.

 

[mdrejhon]

I can't help but feel like we've all been conned by Mr. Tory. He basically repackaged the GO RER proposal and presented it as his own, new transit solution. It's looking like whatever happens with RER would've happened regardless of Tory's, ummm... cooperation.

SmartTrack was the centrepiece of Tory's campaign. I don't want to say he was elected on false pretenses, but there is something very unsettling about all this.

I'll wait to see the SmartTrack evaluations in the fall before getting too upset over this.

For me, nothing has changed -- these are still spanking new electric GO trains.

I already knew SmartTrack was GO trains -- just spanking new electric GO trains like the ones popping up. Probably European-style lighter rail trains, as I've repeatedly suggested.

Worth re-quoting for context, by what I already long knew that SmartTrack was simply just going to be electric GO trains --

but this is more of a commuter rail transit rather than urban high frequency heavy rail.

On that subject, it's certainly possible SmartTrack will be using European style EMUs, as Transport Canada appears willing to consider waiving heavy rail FRA requirements.

Transport Canada has recently indicated that they may be more flexible with the FRA structural strength requirements, which might open opportunities for GO to study a broader range of European and Asian EMUs and DMUs. Specifically, they stated their intent to require new GO vehicles to either:
 Meet FRA structure strength and crash worthiness for passenger cars, or
 Maintain temporal separation from freight and heavy rail passenger traffic, or
 Operate under some form of Positive Train Control (PTC) signalling system

-- Metrolinx purchased a large amount of the GO train network enabling good temporal separation options (entire RER corridor ownership)
-- Metrolinx also appear planning to install Positive Train Control signalling for the electrified segments of RER.

That means they can go above-and-beyond Transport Canada indications by satisfying not one, but simultaneously two proposed bullets necessary to permit non-FRA trains, under this very preliminary guidance from Transport Canada to Metrolinx.

This potentially satisfies Transport Canada in letting Metrolinx operate Euro style SmartTrack trains -- like the S-Bahn train in Germany or similiar trains like the Stadler KISS trainset recently pictured in several Metrolinx PowerPoint graphics (here, here). Although there is no news yet, all government PDF/PowerPoints point to SmartTrack probably using less-heavy trainsets. Heavier than a streetcar, but not as heavy as a classic heavy rail passenger train. Bombardier makes some of those too, stuff we're not yet allowed to run in regular rail corridors, until waivered.

Connect the dots, and you're right. It's all headed in this direction.
SmartTrack probably isn't classic heavy rail, even if not an LRT.

Images of potential "lighter-than-heavy-rail" GO trains actually pictured in Metrolinx powerpoint:

Although this is clipart of bilevel lighter-rail trains, Metrolinx's recent enthusiasm for non-FRA -- ic "light rail" EMUs is noteworthy, and their actions is already opening the door in this direction, and Transport Canada is willing.

It might not be bilevels, it might be single levels, but these are otherwise spanking new electric "lighter rail" commuter trains of the Euro/Asian style, rather than FRA-compliant heavy rail trains.

So the earlier talk last year of SmartTrack being "light rail" actually has actual truth to it (by FRA standards), but it requires a little educational explanation as these aren't fully light rail like streetcars. More of a hybrid -- ligher than a North American passenger train, heavier than a road-corridor streetcar/LRT.

Also, my prediction about Bramalea RER and SmartTrack RER (whatever Airport routing they build) taking turns spurring off seems to have been a potentially pretty accurate prediction. Although it's at lower frequency than I guessed, taking turns wyeing in opposite directions on the spur to 30 minutes for each the two separate spurs (RER Bramalea and RER over SmartTrack spur). Though "15-min-and-better" would presumably mean the door is open to higher frequency (e.g. every 10 mins before the spur, every 20 mins for each leg of the spur), especially during peak.

I presume that classic GOtrains will stand-in for GO RER initially (electric locomotive driven) but those are better for routes of large station spacing like Burlington-Oshawa 15-min Lakeshore service, and the EMUs would first be purchased for the route of dense station spacing (SmartTrack routing) with the rest of EMUs phased in gradually as more electricifation is done, with bilevels redirected to improving service in other corridors.

I do not think Tory did deception regarding the GO trains because SmartTrack is still a spanking brand new lighter-than-heavy-rail electric GO train. Tory (mostly) helpfully hyped up an modified/accelerated/enhanced version of an electric GOtrain route -- Toronto needs to realize we have a great GOtrain system worthy of converting to a surface subway. He succeeded. Ontario and Metrolinx noticed; polar opposites Wynne and Harper have offered funding! That's a miracle, and is All Right with Me. But details are definitely being left out which can raise suspicion about the distinction.

I would give the benefit of doubt, as most of the SmartTrack concepts are very welcome except for the expensive Eglinton spur, although the new proposed cheaper Pearson routing to Airport Corporate Centre abutting the airport grounds (with a possible airport stop) seems to make better sense. Given appropriate modifications to the controversial aspects (Eglinton spur and TIF), SmartTrack is a good enhanced electric GO train that has been successfully marketed to Toronto's public.

In other words: Both Tory and City/Metrolinx are telling different interpretations/brandings of the same thing. Fancy new lighter electric trains for SmartTrack is still correct truth -- but they are still GO trains -- like the ones they were planning to buy (eventually) anyway but accelerated/expanded by the cheerleading by Tory and Wynne.

New look trains, lighter rail trains, more stations, subway frequencies in the core segment before spurs, TTC fare, but are still GO trains. Some new brand name resembling "SmartTrack" might occur for political reasons, but they're still the spanking brand new electric GO trains.

 

[crs1026]

I don't think "we've all been conned" is accurate. Many people were skeptical. Many people like me thought itwas RER with a few extra stops, better buut not a DRL replacement. Then there are theones who letthemselvesbelieve this was possible. t.

Agreed. Plenty of people recognized from the very beginning that Smarttrack was developed on the back of an envelope in the strategy room of a candidate running for office, and nothing more. We knew that when the concept eventually was tested by actual planning studies and professional analyses - which is different from having other candidates challenge it in a mayoral debate - some parts would hold up and other parts would not. Now we get to see if it's viable or not. Personally I'm glad to see we are moving into a more professionally driven, fact based debate.

Bring on the analysis!

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

But in either case, Eglinton along this stretch is a lost opportunity because of the previous short-sighted regime and there's no way Smarttrack will work along this stretch as the upcoming study will illustrate.

I don't think anyone (except maybe Mayor Tory) thinks that heavy rail will work along Eglinton West. Even without the townhouse development, it probably would not have been possible. But a poster suggested that there wasn't even room for a trenched or elevated transit line and I think that's wrong.

As I put some more thought into it, move the line to the south side of Eglinton West of Kipling is not that bad. The townhouse construction finally shows up on Google, so I can consider some options. The "S" curve (with 100m radius curves) to switch from the North to South side will take about 90 to 100m. A pier would be needed in the median of Eglinton to make the spans a manageable 50m.

The Martin Grove Station would have to be on the SE corner (I originally imagined it on the NW). This is so the line could descend immediately (well, after 100m) west of Martin Grove so that is would basically be at/near grade under the hydro lines. In the next 200m, it would then have to go over Eglinton. Note that I switched the 427 ramps to Eglinton. The eastmost ramp would be the Eglinton West (and East Mall) exit ramp and the central ramp would become the Eglinton East ramp. This is needed so that the transit line can go over the ramp, but still under all 8 of the 427 bridges over Eglinton (I left about 180m length for this). It would either go through the north end spans or in place of the north shoulder (or 1 direction in either spot).

So instead of trying to put heavy rail somehow curving off the Brampton GO corridor at Mount Dennis and going along Eglinton West - I propose to send the SmartTrack up to Bramton and a grade-separated Eglinton LRT line to the airport corporate centre. This will most likely save over $1B over the John Tory plan, but still satisfy all those voters (and the Mayor, Councillors, MPPs and MPs) who supported rapid transit to the airport centre.

 

[Amare]

I don't think anyone (except maybe Mayor Tory) thinks that heavy rail will work along Eglinton West. Even without the townhouse development, it probably would not have been possible. But a poster suggested that there wasn't even room for a trenched or elevated transit line and I think that's wrong.

As I put some more thought into it, move the line to the south side of Eglinton West of Kipling is not that bad. The townhouse construction finally shows up on Google, so I can consider some options. The "S" curve (with 100m radius curves) to switch from the North to South side will take about 90 to 100m. A pier would be needed in the median of Eglinton to make the spans a manageable 50m.

Believe me, the previously vacant land north of Eglinton between Royal York and around Widdicombe Blvd would have been sufficient for a trench. Fitting in a station a various points would have been a little tricky, but definitely doable.

The south side proposal you speak of would be even more difficult to do compared to the original vacant land on the north side. Unless your proposal is to go underground, there is no way the land south of Eglinton would be able to accommodate a surface rail line of any type. Land would have to be taken from the high school on Eglinton and Martin Grove, and even then it would still be an extremely tight squeeze. Additionally it would require the removal of the bike lane (the NIMBY's would probably begin to take notice solely for this reason).

 

[gweed123]

I can't help but feel like we've all been conned by Mr. Tory. He basically repackaged the GO RER proposal and presented it as his own, new transit solution. It's looking like whatever happens with RER would've happened regardless of Tory's, ummm... cooperation.

SmartTrack was the centrepiece of Tory's campaign. I don't want to say he was elected on false pretenses, but there is something very unsettling about all this.

I'll wait to see the SmartTrack evaluations in the fall before getting too upset over this.

I'd much rather have a candidate repackage a plan that was going to get built anyway than propose something completely different that derails what was already in the works (unless what's in the works was the result of a flawed process, i.e. the Scarborough Subway). When you compare the impediment that Tory's plan has had on transit progress vs Ford's, I don't think there's any question which one is preferable.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

SmartTrack may inadvertently be the ammunition needed to cancel the Scarborough Subway Extension as well.