[nfitz]

So again it's not that anyone here necessarily wants to rationalize a 700 ppdph extension, but given our current situation it's not that bad an alternative to an all-LRT plan like TC which does nothing at all for southwestern Etobicoke or alleviating Islington/Kipling and the highway conditions that exist along Dundas Street today due to all that bus traffic.

Given how little demand there seems to be for transit in the Sherway area, perhaps they should simply extend the subway down Dundas. Assuming that the reason we are doing it, is to get it to Mississauga.

 

[kEiThZ]

Can we PLEASE stop talking about Mississauga Transit buses going to Sherway. There is currently a grand total of ONE MT bus that serves Sherway. A subway expansion to Sherway will NOT change this. As people who know more about MT than I do have already said many times (drum and doady), MT buses would service East Mall. That is why if Sherway is build, East Mall needs to be built too. Otherwise MT would continue to service Kipling and Islington. I really wanna shake anyone who says MT will service Sherway VERY VERY hard to get it into their heads that MT has no interest in a Sherway station. Sherway is too far south (it's at The Queensway!). Mississauga's least dense portion is Queensway and on to Lakeshore. East Mall and Dundas serves the 1 Dundas and all the buses that come off the 427. No need to route them a few kilometers out of their way to try and justify Sherway's expansion. I think both are needed. But East Mall is needed more.

You are making a big assumption that the City of Toronto will continue supporting bus traffic going to Islington or Kipling when there are stations further West. Residents in this area aren't all that enamoured with the amount of traffic they get. It's highly unlikely they would continue to tolerate MT bus traffic if other options exist. I don't know whether or not it'll be East Mall or Sherway. That largely hinges on what gets built (mostly whether East Mall gets built). But you can bet that if the line goes west, MT buses won't be making it to Kipling or Islington.

If there's no East Mall, it'll be Sherway. There is no way MT can dictate where MT buses will go inside the 416. They can try and negotiate something. But it's not their city, so they can't just make it happen.

 

[kEiThZ]

Given how little demand there seems to be for transit in the Sherway area, perhaps they should simply extend the subway down Dundas. Assuming that the reason we are doing it, is to get it to Mississauga.

That's your assumption (that Smitherman's building this for Mississauga). It could actually be the case that he's simply following past goals of expanding transit and desirous of bringing the subway to the Sherway area. And it's also an assumption that there's a "little demand". A good updated study would probably tell us there's way more than 700 pph, especially given all the changes in the area. I look forward to a new study.

 

[nfitz]

If there's no East Mall, it'll be Sherway. There is no way MT can dictate where MT buses will go inside the 416. They can try and negotiate something. But it's not their city, so they can't just make it happen.

So your position is that you want to spend $1-billion of the City of Toronto's money, to extend the subway west to Sherway without an East Mall stop, and for which there is virtually no demand for travel for Torontonians, but you'll justify the numbers by making everyone in Mississauga use this station, rather than the current stations, which are more convenient for most routes?

The phrase "Tin-pot mayor" comes to mind.

 

[hbl33]

Islington is really inefficient [I took many MT routes through Burnhamthorpe and Dundas in the past two years], and overcrowded for MT to use, along with TTC. And I loathe taking 26 (and 20) going through eastbound Burnhamthorpe beyond crossing 427. Slow speed, too many stops along the way and of course, NIMBIES!

Kipling is much better location due to infrastructure and is a terminus of B/D line. It also offers more connections between three transits.

East Mall, while not as largely as notable as Sherway, actually saves time for MT riders as well as TTC commuters from West Etobicoke. Extending to Sherway would definitely relieve already-strained TTC bus ops and make some MT routes divert to here for connections. I would see new MT routes making connecting to Sherway rather than going all the way to Islington through construction sites.

But really, it's T.O. that have a final say and approve it.

 

[kEiThZ]

So your position is that you want to spend $1-billion of the City of Toronto's money, to extend the subway west to Sherway without an East Mall stop, and for which there is virtually no demand for travel for Torontonians, but you'll justify the numbers by making everyone in Mississauga use this station, rather than the current stations, which are more convenient for most routes?

The phrase "Tin-pot mayor" comes to mind.

I never said that was my position (it's not) or that it was Smitherman's position. I am merely challenging the hypothesis that we can automatically assume that MT buses will go to whatever station inside the City of Toronto that Mississauga Transit feels they should be directed to.

Personally, I would hope they build an East Mall station if they are going west. But really that's going to be governed by ridership considerations. If there isn't enough local ridership (walk in or transfers), would be spend $100 million for essentially an MT terminal at East Mall? I don't know.

 

[hbl33]

Personally, I would hope they build an East Mall station if they are going west. But really that's going to be governed by ridership considerations. If there isn't enough local ridership (walk in or transfers), would be spend $100 million for essentially an MT terminal at East Mall? I don't know.

And the ideal location for the station? Cloverdale Mall? Or would it be CP-aligned and make a stop at the bridge above the East Mall?

 

[kEiThZ]

And the ideal location for the station? Cloverdale Mall? Or would it be CP-aligned and make a stop at the bridge above the East Mall?

All has to be determined through further study. I think people are making too much of the lines on a map. If you look at the wording in his platform, nothing is firm or in-depth. It's just the idea. He wants to extend to STC. However, it doesn't say that they will use the current alignment for sure. That speculation came out of the line on his map, which was likely just made by staffer who took some standard map and changed a few colours.

Similarly, I think the idea is just to extend the subway to Sherway. Exact routing, stations along the way haven't been developed yet.

 

[dob467]

Spacing has a good overview of his bike plans - http://spacingtoronto.ca/2010/06/01/smitherman-to-curb-your-bike-lanes-enthusiasm/

 

[kEiThZ]

Spacing has a good overview of his bike plans - http://spacingtoronto.ca/2010/06/01/smitherman-to-curb-your-bike-lanes-enthusiasm/

I've ridden far more in Ottawa than Toronto. Why? Separate bike lanes. Most people I know (including me) don't really enjoy the thought of riding a low visibility object in the same space as a two ton vehicle. I'd feel much safer and ride more if there were curbed lanes.

I like his ideas about curbed lanes, bike lanes through hydro corridors, parks and ravines. That will actually get people biking.

One thing that's struck me as odd is the prohibition on riding on the sidewalk. I understand why it's there. But I just don't see riding on the sidewalk being a big deal outside the core. I'd sure as hell rather ride on the sidewalk along Sheppard than share the road with traffic that routinely moves at 80 km/h.

And while I appreciate where the biking zelots are coming from, I simply don't agree with them. If you want to cater the existing bikers then add more lanes. But if you are talking about getting the general public biking, then you have to put in place the infrastructure that makes people feel safe enough to bike.

 

[gweed123]

Very different. The planners are forecasted only 700 riders for peak hour, only 7,144 passengers per day at Sherway. The forecasts for Don Mills station were several times this. Fairview Mall isn't the major driver, look at the population density around here, and the number of bus routes. While route 15 and 80 end there, neither would feed that many passengers - and the two routes combined only have 5,300 a day - I'd think only a fraction would want to head the wrong way to the subway.. Route 123 would be well served - 5,800 passengers per day. And it would also serve Mississauga route 4, which runs every 32 minutes in rush hour (the remaining routes would be better served by an East Mall station, or the existing Islington and Kipling stations).

I'm just shocked that you are defending a subway with less than 1,000 at peak hour. This only confirms my suspicions that much of this subway expansion push is not driven by either passenger demand, or a rational use of money. It really challenges your credibility.

Sherway ... 7,144 per day.

Yeah, I know where you are going ... and it's for this reason that the York University works. Peak hour is only forecast (in 2001 for 2021) to be 3,800 ... however the daily total is a quite high 81,762 (compare to Eglinton West, where they forecast a peak hour of 4,100 but only a daily total of 45,448).

Forecast demands can be easily manipulated, and I've already explained that those forecasts are outdated. I'm just saying, no one is really arguing that Don Mills station is a flop, so why do you assume that Sherway would be? Like I pointed out, the two have very similar circumstances. I must also point out that a lot of the development that you mention around Don Mills was put in AFTER the subway, or at least while it was being built. Why would the same type of development not occur at Sherway? There's room for it.

And I fail to see how asking a question about the numbers 'challenges my credibility'.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I've ridden far more in Ottawa than Toronto. Why? Separate bike lanes. Most people I know (including me) don't really enjoy the thought of riding a low visibility object in the same space as a two ton vehicle. I'd feel much safer and ride more if there were curbed lanes.

I like his ideas about curbed lanes, bike lanes through hydro corridors, parks and ravines. That will actually get people biking.

One thing that's struck me as odd is the prohibition on riding on the sidewalk. I understand why it's there. But I just don't see riding on the sidewalk being a big deal outside the core. I'd sure as hell rather ride on the sidewalk along Sheppard than share the road with traffic that routinely moves at 80 km/h.

And while I appreciate where the biking zelots are coming from, I simply don't agree with them. If you want to cater the existing bikers then add more lanes. But if you are talking about getting the general public biking, then you have to put in place the infrastructure that makes people feel safe enough to bike.

The wide suburban lanes create a desire for more speed for the automobiles. They are usually designed for 10 km/h OVER the posted speed limit. That is what makes it frightening for bicycles. If they could narrow the lanes, it would slow the speed somewhat.

I do agree with the curbed bike lanes, especially with the wide right-of-way the suburban streets have. But first they should add sidewalks to the suburban sidestreets. I have seen a great deal of suburban streets with no sidewalks, or just one on one side. Having no sidewalks means sharing the roads with pedistrians, cyclists, and motorists. When they start to add sidwalks, they should add either bike lanes and/or curbed bike paths.

 

[Dan416]

I don't think anyone would realistically build an extension from Kiping to Sherway without an East Mall stop at this point. The City of Mississauga would be likely to contribute to an East Mall station, since they would use it, but they'd have no need to help build Sherway station, as only one infrequent bus uses it.

As for MT buses continuing to use Kipling and Islington when East Mall opens, I doubt many, if any would. I don't know what routes would benefit from still trekking out that far east. The vast majority would probably be re-routed to East Mall. MT provides a lot of ridership to Kipling and Islington. How many people actually live in Etobicoke anyway?

As for nfitz's red herrings about Sherway's ridership projections, as others have mentioned that was before all the condos were built there. I have no doubt that they're now underestimated and need to be reevaluated. Especially with Etobicoke's mini condo boom. A station at East Mall would bring more riders to that station as well.

As for having the subway stay on Dundas instead of serving Sherway, that would serve Mississauga, but I think Etobicoke would be up in arms about it. Unless the subway branches out, with one branch serving Sherway and the other serving Dundas and then Mississauga. But that seems kinda stupid to me. By the time Sherway gets a subway, a Dundas LRT may already be in service.

 

[Fresh Start]

We don't need branches. After Sherway the next expansion of BD westwards would be to Dixie-Dundas. How useful would a East Mall Stn be to Mississaugans then?

FYI following the street grid, the next major arteries west of Kipling are Shaver/Shorncliffe (Martin Grove) and Highway 27, not the East Mall. No one's walking in from the main road to such a desolete stop location, which is also very indirect for bus routes as well.

 

[Dan416]

We don't need branches. After Sherway the next expansion of BD westwards would be to Dixie-Dundas. How useful would a East Mall Stn be to Mississaugans then?

FYI following the street grid, the next major arteries west of Kipling are Shaver/Shorncliffe (Martin Grove) and Highway 27, not the East Mall. No one's walking in from the main road to such a desolete stop location, which is also very indirect for bus routes as well.

If a Dixie-Dundas stop were to be built at the same time as Sherway and East Mall, then the need for East Mall decreases considerably, but I imagine it'd still be built (not every bus would be re-routed to Dixie and Dundas.

As for East Mall being desolate, I don't know what you're talking about. And how it's indirect for bus routes, I really have ZERO clue what you're talking about as it's more direct than your beloved Sherway.