TrickyRicky
Senior Member
Forget downtown or suburbs taal, the GTA needs more jobs period.
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- Thread starter canarob
- Start date
GenericUser
Banned
+1. Especially considering that people atually want to live downtown these days!
taal
Senior Member
Why do you say this ... this is a terrible place for new jobs ... other then the fact there are already many other terribly located jobs beside this newly proposed terrible location.
If it was in MCC I'd by your argument.
What about the rest of Tornto other then the core, there are no new jobs there, whereas this area gets jobs all the time ?
maestro
Senior Member
Most of Toronto is as poorly planned as the 905 but, with higher land costs. The dense suburban nodes only exacerbate the cost of land and building up is the only solution which eats time and more money. What's amazing that even a glimpse of urbanity as provided by North York Centre counters the cost of land and building up.
taal
Senior Member
That's incorrect actually ... land in suburban Toronto (outside of the centers) is cheeper then the 905 ... because of the tax indifference, to attract tenants, landlords need to charge cheaper gross rents (as the tax portion, which is paid by the tenant is magnitudes time higher in the 416), this is so the net rents are comparable. Hence the land, zoned for office development is less.
That's why there's been no new office growth, its not the tenants, if their were good quality building in the outer 416 you'd probably see some growth, but for developers / land owners its much harder to make a profit (as tenants aren't willing to pay more to locate in the outer 416 compared to the outer 905 ... and why should they). So that means suburban Toronto has decaying old office building, and hence tenants are reluctant to locate their. Quality matter, even outside the core.
That's why there's been no new office growth, its not the tenants, if their were good quality building in the outer 416 you'd probably see some growth, but for developers / land owners its much harder to make a profit (as tenants aren't willing to pay more to locate in the outer 416 compared to the outer 905 ... and why should they). So that means suburban Toronto has decaying old office building, and hence tenants are reluctant to locate their. Quality matter, even outside the core.
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yyzer
Senior Member
Well, aside from the urbanity issues, good for Mississauga! And, as Jasonzed mentioned, it will be located next to a BRT station.
maestro
Senior Member
I'm sorry but to find a sizable piece of property to build a typical 905, six storey, 150,000 square foot building surrounding by surface parking is going to be infinitely more expensive in the 416 than the hot spots in the 905. Where are the ready to build greenfields? The vast majority of developable properties have improvements which are factored into the sales price or brownfields requiring expensive remediation.
Bringing parity to the tax rate will do very little to encourage sizable office development in the 416. It certainly hasn't help the urban centres of the 905 that compete with the likes of Heartland and Meadowvale.
Most tenants beyond the fly by nights and logistics/warehousing types are willing to look beyond the bottom line. You need attractions and amenities beyond a local bus route that takes you to an overcrowded subway a half an hour away. That pretty much sums up the former boroughs.
Bringing parity to the tax rate will do very little to encourage sizable office development in the 416. It certainly hasn't help the urban centres of the 905 that compete with the likes of Heartland and Meadowvale.
Most tenants beyond the fly by nights and logistics/warehousing types are willing to look beyond the bottom line. You need attractions and amenities beyond a local bus route that takes you to an overcrowded subway a half an hour away. That pretty much sums up the former boroughs.
taal
Senior Member
There is much more land in the outer 416 then one thinks. Take Steeles near Victoria Park, there are huge plots of land around that area, zoned for commercial, this is where a "hich-tech campus" was built years ago (with a lot of parking) it was suppose to be one phase of a few, only one phase ever got off the ground. There are a few large plots of land on the 404 north of the 401.
If you venture off to Etobicko and parts of Scarborough there is even more land (and these lands are already zoned commercial).
This whole, Toronto is built out argument is a myth.
taal
Senior Member
Use target then, and the many other US companies that have headquarters around the airport, due these qualify as "fly by nights and logistics/warehousing types", one wouldn't imagine so.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Target probably look at this location and say:
1. Cheaper
2. Extreme ease of access for visitors from our parent company
3. Ease of access to them to all the stores the plan to build.
This is a superior location for a company like Target....one that they would likely pick even if #2 above was not true.
Not all companies need/want/should be downtown.
taal
Senior Member
Hence why Toronto isn't as core centric (from a job point of view) as some other cities in North America (while others are even more scattered). Calgary / Chicago, both cities that have a heavier presence in the core, there are other examples.
I think that model is better but many would disagree.
I think that model is better but many would disagree.
Memph
Active Member
Among American cities, only New York and maybe Chicago (and only barely) have more than 50% of office space in the core. I'm pretty sure Toronto's core (downtown+midtown) has about 50% of the metro area's office space.
taal
Senior Member
You're probably right, but there are likely more cities then you think. I honestly thought the same way when I used to look at office market reports, which would show a big amount of space in the suburbs.
The problem is in the states, for whatever reason, what is considered "suburban" office space for a market, covers much much more area then Toronto (just like how CMA comparison's to the states are generally skewed ... for example Toronto's equivalent would likely include Hamilton and Waterloo).
Jasonzed
Senior Member
http://www.dailycommercialnews.com/cgi-bin/top10.pl?rm=show_top10_project&id=86cf719de01714860a93a88c57b93ed4d68ae82a&projectid=9165848®ion=ontario
OFFICE BLDGS Proj: 9165848-1
Mississauga, Peel Reg ON CONTEMPLATED
Spectrum Square, 5100 Satellite Dr, L4W
$146,250,000 est
Note: This project is preliminary. Owner's representative has submitted applications for both Official Plan amendment and Rezoning approvals. Schedules for design, tender and construction are not known at this time. The restaurant component of this development can be followed under report number 9165857. Further update late 2012.
Project: proposed development which will include two 6-storey and two 8-storey office buildings.
Scope: 765,766 square feet; 8 storeys; 4 structures; parking for 2280 cars
Development: New
Category: Commercial offices
This report Fri Sep 14, 2012.
OFFICE BLDGS Proj: 9165848-1
Mississauga, Peel Reg ON CONTEMPLATED
Spectrum Square, 5100 Satellite Dr, L4W
$146,250,000 est
Note: This project is preliminary. Owner's representative has submitted applications for both Official Plan amendment and Rezoning approvals. Schedules for design, tender and construction are not known at this time. The restaurant component of this development can be followed under report number 9165857. Further update late 2012.
Project: proposed development which will include two 6-storey and two 8-storey office buildings.
Scope: 765,766 square feet; 8 storeys; 4 structures; parking for 2280 cars
Development: New
Category: Commercial offices
This report Fri Sep 14, 2012.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
Taal, if this is a terrible location for jobs and produces excessive strain on our existing infrastructure than that will play itself out and impact the future desirability of the area and the rents that it can sustain. As to the concentration of office work in the core, I think the GTA is way past the point where a specific agenda to concentrate office development in the downtown core is a) necessary b) desirable c) capable of being effective