[evandyk]

Sorry to rant but it makes me angry to see this cycle happen again and again and to know nobody cares, because we live downtown and this is what we are supposed to expect now.

It's not just downtown. Dufferin Grove now has 50+ tents. And while you'd expect that number to go down as colder weather approaches, vocal activists in the area are organizing donations of heaters, cook stoves, etc. so it probably won't.

 

[Bayer]

St. James park is filling up with tents again. A few more every day. My wife walked through today and saw a partially clothed man "bathing" himself in the central area. Now she won't walk through the park alone again. The other day a man pulled out his penis and casually urinated against a wall at King and Princess, at midday, in front of us.

Please remind me why we pay tax dollars to refurbish and maintain parks we cannot use? Why we vote repeatedly for politicians who promise to solve these problems but nothing changes? Why we pay taxes that go to police officers who I never see leave the station?

Sorry to rant but it makes me angry to see this cycle happen again and again and to know nobody cares, because we live downtown and this is what we are supposed to expect now.

Homelessness won't be solved through police action. I suggest you redirect your anger and advocate for improved social services and more social/rent-geared-to-income housing. If you don't want to see people urinating in public, advocate also for public toilets. Or go spend a week in Rome, you won't be as bothered after that! IYKYK, as they say.

 

[DSC]

 

[Towered]

It's not just downtown. Dufferin Grove now has 50+ tents. And while you'd expect that number to go down as colder weather approaches, vocal activists in the area are organizing donations of heaters, cook stoves, etc. so it probably won't.

I'm in the Dufferin Grove facebook group and this topic comes up frequently, and the amount of enabling that goes on is kind of shocking. Might as well just hand over all of our parks then, and tell our kids we can no longer use them. Bellevue Park in Kensington makes me so mad now - a few years ago the city spent a fortune to completely re-do it and create a really fun playground area for kids, but it's no longer usable because it's been completely overrun by junkies. I used to be able to take my son there, and while there were always "quirky" types floating around, they were mixed in with sane families like my own, so as long as you kept an eye on them and remained alert, it was fine. Now I can't even do that. This is the type of nonsense that pushes politically centrist people into the hands of right wing politicians.

 

[CityPainter]

Homelessness won't be solved through police action. I suggest you redirect your anger and advocate for improved social services and more social/rent-geared-to-income housing. If you don't want to see people urinating in public, advocate also for public toilets. Or go spend a week in Rome, you won't be as bothered after that! IYKYK, as they say.

I did not fall off a turnip truck yesterday. I have lived in the core for 25 years. I have seen the cycles of homelessness and addiction up close throughout. I have voted for Jack Layton, Pam McConnell, Kristyn Wong-Tam and Olivia Chow, all progressive politicians who share your suggested approach. I have routinely donated to the Daily Bread Food Bank, Salvation Army and Covenant House.

I am expressing my frustration specifically because myself and many others have been doing exactly all the things that you condescendingly suggest, for decades now, and clearly it is not working. So if you suggest I redirect my anger, then I suggest you open your eyes.

The unhoused deserve empathy and support. But people living downtown also deserve to have a good quality of life and feel safe in our own neighbourhoods. Why are we expected to endure a daily routine of public urination, public defecation, racist and homophobic rants from the mentally ill, smashed windows, unusable parks, needles on the ground, businesses with locked doors that won't let customers inside without pre-approval on camera, and many other indignities, all with good humour and empathy and without complaint? All while those who have the power to actually "solve" these issues speak platitudes just like yours at City Hall or Queen's Park, then climb into their SUVs and head back to their homes in the suburbs? And I'm certainly not asking the police to "solve" homelessness but I wouldn't mind seeing some occasional reasonable enforcement of the laws we already have in place to ensure our public spaces are safe for all.

Maybe you're fine with a moral victory, or happy with whataboutism that compares us to some other theoretically worse place (I thought Rome was beautiful) but I'm not fine with either of those things. I'm still angry.

 

[Bayer]

I did not fall off a turnip truck yesterday. I have lived in the core for 25 years. I have seen the cycles of homelessness and addiction up close throughout. I have voted for Jack Layton, Pam McConnell, Kristyn Wong-Tam and Olivia Chow, all progressive politicians who share your suggested approach. I have routinely donated to the Daily Bread Food Bank, Salvation Army and Covenant House.

I am expressing my frustration specifically because myself and many others have been doing exactly all the things that you condescendingly suggest, for decades now, and clearly it is not working. So if you suggest I redirect my anger, then I suggest you open your eyes.

The unhoused deserve empathy and support. But people living downtown also deserve to have a good quality of life and feel safe in our own neighbourhoods. Why are we expected to endure a daily routine of public urination, public defecation, racist and homophobic rants from the mentally ill, smashed windows, unusable parks, needles on the ground, businesses with locked doors that won't let customers inside without pre-approval on camera, and many other indignities, all with good humour and empathy and without complaint? All while those who have the power to actually "solve" these issues speak platitudes just like yours at City Hall or Queen's Park, then climb into their SUVs and head back to their homes in the suburbs? And I'm certainly not asking the police to "solve" homelessness but I wouldn't mind seeing some occasional reasonable enforcement of the laws we already have in place to ensure our public spaces are safe for all.

Maybe you're fine with a moral victory, or happy with whataboutism that compares us to some other theoretically worse place (I thought Rome was beautiful) but I'm not fine with either of those things. I'm still angry.

I didn't mean to be condescending and I fully understand your frustration. I have lived in the core also, for 36 years. I have had homeless people threaten to beat me up, pursuing me through the streets while screaming that I was the Devil, telling me they would kill me in the subway. Enforcement in such places as parks will fail unless encampments are forcibly removed, and I'm opposed to that because those people have nowhere else to go. We had a conservative mayor until recently, and apparently people would be willing to reelect Ford and won't hesitate to "punish" a relatively progressive federal government by replacing it with more conservatives who will not be interested in those issues. This is a deeply frustrating situation but I will never agree to more oppression just so I can be made to feel more comfortable. (And yes, I loved Rome, but public urination by obviously non-homeless men was a regular occurrence during my time there.)

I should add that my husband was once homeless years ago, in the US, and what he told me of his experiences then has an impact on my point of view.

 

[CityPainter]

I didn't mean to be condescending and I fully understand your frustration. I have lived in the core also, for 36 years. I have had homeless people threaten to beat me up, pursuing me through the streets while screaming that I was the Devil, telling me they would kill me in the subway. Enforcement in such places as parks will fail unless encampments are forcibly removed, and I'm opposed to that because those people have nowhere else to go. We had a conservative mayor until recently, and apparently people would be willing to reelect Ford and won't hesitate to "punish" a relatively progressive federal government by replacing it with more conservatives who will not be interested in those issues. This is a deeply frustrating situation but I will never agree to more oppression just so I can be made to feel more comfortable. (And yes, I loved Rome, but public urination by obviously non-homeless men was a regular occurrence during my time there.)

Ok, that's fine, I suspect we're more on the same page or not. I don't want to see violent police evictions of encampments either, which is why I would prefer this situation be averted before there are dozens of tents taking over the park and things get ugly. The tents have been accumulating for weeks while everybody pretends not to notice and we all know where that is going to lead eventually.

 

[mcbg1]

Homelessness won't be solved through police action. I suggest you redirect your anger and advocate for improved social services and more social/rent-geared-to-income housing. If you don't want to see people urinating in public, advocate also for public toilets. Or go spend a week in Rome, you won't be as bothered after that! IYKYK, as they say.

Most of those people are on drugs and will never get better. You could offer them free treatment, a job and free housing and they would still prefer to live in these conditions. Can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

 

[DSC]

Most of those people are on drugs and will never get better. You could offer them free treatment, a job and free housing and they would still prefer to live in these conditions. Can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

Well, that's certainly one approach but drug and alcohol addiction is a disease and many addicts do want (or did want) to be 'cured'. Like all sickness, some cannot be cured but many can and we need to try. Will 100% 'get better'? No, but the same applies to cancer or broken legs and we keep trying there.

 

[mcbg1]

Well, that's certainly one approach but drug and alcohol addiction is a disease and many addicts do want (or did want) to be 'cured'. Like all sickness, some cannot be cured but many can and we need to try. Will 100% 'get better'? No, but the same applies to cancer or broken legs and we keep trying there.

But people with cancer and broken legs aren't out there destroying neighbourhoods and businesses and hurting people.

 

[PL1]

But people with cancer and broken legs aren't out there destroying neighbourhoods and businesses and hurting people.

People are Society is trying to help people with cancer and broken legs

 

[mcbg1]

People are trying to help people with cancer and broken legs

People with mental health and drug issues can get help. Most of them just don't want it. So we should make it easier for them to get access to help but after that, there is nothing else we can do to help them. Letting them destroy our neighbourhoods isn't a solution.

 

[Northern Light]

People with mental health and drug issues can get help.

May I suggest that you actually talk to someone who works in rehab, or detox, or an emergency room, and that you ask them what what the wait is for inpatient addiction treatment in Toronto.

I think you will find there is a wait list................

Waits vary over time and place, but the average wait in Canada over the last few years is about 5 weeks just to get counselling and about 5 months to get into residential treatment.

So if someone in withdrawal or otherwise having a sober moment and having hit bottom reaches out for help.........what we do is send them back out into the street......with 'Don't call us, we'll call you' .....of course we don't give them a phone and send them back into the very environment that fosters their problems.

Most of them just don't want it.

I think 'most' is a strong word. I think you would find that many, during lucid/sober moments would like help, but don't know who to ask, and if they do, they get put on an interminable wait list.

In the event they ultimately get a spot, no one can reach them to tell them; and/or they are no longer lucid/sober because the moment has passed.

So we should make it easier for them to get access to help

Certainly.

but after that, there is nothing else we can do to help them

Disagree. While I think involuntary treatment should be a last resort, I think its reasonable to put on the table, with safeguards, for people who clearly are unable to function in society and are causing some level of harm to themselves, or others.

Additionally, we need to remember that not everyone in encampments are drug involved, though its certainly quite common. Aside from other forms of mental illness, there are people who are simply homeless, and desperate, and who either can't find a shelter bed, or who have found our shelters so dangerous, so rule-bound, so lacking in privacy with dubious hygiene that they think a park is preferable in all but the worst weather.

. Letting them destroy our neighbourhoods isn't a solution.

No, its not. Though I think that's a bit overdone; if you said 'diminish' I would be on board.

****

FWIW, I've already suggested somewhat more passive changes to select parks that would tend to discourage encampments that have the advantage of not appearing heartless. Introducing irrigation (sprinklers) which would be good horticultural practice anyway, often serves to discourage the pitching of tents.

So does activating a park with positive uses; rarely do people even pitch a tent on a flower bed, and you don't see them mid-playground, or sports field.

For all of the above, I don't think 'defensive design' is the key to solving this issue.

I think treatment and housing are by the far the top two, followed by broader anti-poverty measures, and then 'shelters' that provide greater privacy, flexibility and security such that people are less likely to avoid them.

But defensive design has a role to play when parks come up for work.

 

[WeirdFishes]

People with mental health and drug issues can get help. Most of them just don't want it. So we should make it easier for them to get access to help but after that, there is nothing else we can do to help them. Letting them destroy our neighbourhoods isn't a solution.

Your comment oversimplifies a complex issue and lacks empathy. Mental health and addiction challenges are not just about access; stigma, fear, and past trauma often prevent people from seeking help, even when it's available. Moreover, these diseases themselves can make it incredibly difficult for individuals to pursue treatment. For marginalized groups, like LGBTQ+ communities or minorities, these barriers are even higher. Instead of dismissing the problem, we need to focus on creating a more supportive environment that addresses the root causes and provides meaningful, accessible help.

I really hope you educate yourself and think about your perspective a little more.

 

[Richard White]

May I suggest that you actually talk to someone who works in rehab, or detox, or an emergency room, and that you ask them what what the wait is for inpatient addiction treatment in Toronto.

I think you will find there is wait list................

Waits vary over time and place, but the average wait in Canada over the last few years is about 5 weeks just to get counselling and about 5 months to get into residential treatment.

So if someone in withdrawal or otherwise having a sober moment and having hit bottom reaches out for help.........what we do is send them back out into the street......with 'Don't call us, we'll call you' .....of course we don't give them a phone and send them back into the very environment that fosters their problems.

This is precisely why we need government run facilities for mental health care.

I'm not saying it will be perfect but it will be better than the alternative.

The only concern I have is the NIMBY-ism. Any facilties would have to be far from urban centers (where they aren't useful) or in local urban centers (where they are useful) with heavy security and walls akin to a prison.

Treatment needs to be made available not just through private clinics but through larger, dedicated facilties.