[MisterF]

Buses are a better option. They don't block arteries, they move faster and they are cheaper to operate. Having said that, a streetcar is much more comfortable, essentially more environmental and adds something to the streetscape.

The speed has nothing to do with rail vs bus. Streetcars are much larger than buses and carry more people, but the loading procedure doesn't reflect this - everyone still files past the driver one by one paying their fare. With more people getting on at each stop, each stop takes longer, slowing down the route. Loading needs to be different for such large vehicles. That problem should be fixed with the new streetcars (all door loading, POP), and the streetcars should speed up because of it.

As for which attracts more riders, this UK Department for Transport study concludes that rail is more attractive to riders. There’s also “Impact on Transit Patronage of Cessation or Inauguration of Rail Service†by Tennyson, (Transportation Research Record 1221), which concludes "It is evident that rail transit is likely to attract from 34 percent to 43 percent more riders than will equivalent bus service." link

 

[W. K. Lis]

Remember the Orion Ikarus Articulated buses? 90 were received in 1987. By 1999, only 40 were in active service. After some rebuilding, the last were withdrawn by 2003.

Guess what? The prototype of Articulated Light Rail Vehieles were received starting in 1982. Regular ALRV's were received starting in 1987. We still have them.

 

[nfitz]

We have then, but TTC is so happy with then they plan to retire them before the older CLRVs.

 

[Dan416]

What? I live along a streetcar line ... with the exception of some kind of accident (that has the cars blocked as well), I've never been able to walk faster than the streetcar, even for a couple of stops. It's quite typical to leave one stop, not see the streetcar behind you, and it's passed you before you get to the next stop; in rush-hour. There's certainly some pressure points, but they aren't the norm, and the transit-priority on the traffic lights has dealt with many of them.

One advantage streetcar has over bus, is that it doesn't constantly have to pull into the parking lane at every stop, and then get back into traffic; though since they changed the law so that the buses have right-of-way to re-enter the traffic, the buses do a lot better than this.

Personally I much prefer the streetcars. They are smoother, more spacious, more comfortable, and a lot quieter (and given that I can hear the major road near me, I'm quite happy not to hear the diesel bus engines going up the hill every 3-minutes).

Haha I was exaggerating a bit. Of course you can't walk faster than a streetcar except in the most extreme situations. The nice thing about streetcars in the winter is that they don't have to worry about slipping and sliding like a bus does.

But streetcars are still annoyingly slow. Given a choice, I'll always take the subway and then take a bus back down rather than take a streetcar the whole way. My ex lived at College/Dufferin, and from U of T it was always faster to take the Bloor subway than to take the slow plodding streetcar to Dufferin. The further out you have to travel, the less attractive the streetcar becomes. And this is exactly why These long routes like the Eglinton LRT and Finch-Sheppard LRT are going to be such failures if they're on-street.

 

[nfitz]

The further out you have to travel, the less attractive the streetcar becomes. And this is exactly why These long routes like the Eglinton LRT and Finch-Sheppard LRT are going to be such failures if they're on-street.

Well of course ... they aren't designed for 15-km long-hauls. Though I'm surprised that University to Dufferin is faster on the subway than the streetcar, if you have to walk to Carleton and back twice; that's not my experience on that section.

But how is this relevent to the Eglinton and Finch LRTs? The Finch-Sheppard has an operating speed of 23 km/hr, and I think someone here said Eglinton averaged 26 km/hr end-to-end. The scheduled speed for the Carlton streetcar in afternoon rush-hour is 14.1 km/hr (and most regulars claim that it still runs late)! (which is faster than most streetcars; King is 11.8, Dundas is 12.3 and Bathurst is 9.3 km/hr. Finch-Sheppard will be twice as fast as those!

And even 23 km/hr is a significant improvement over the current Finch/Sheppard speeds. Finch West (A) is 17.2; Finch East (B) is 18.9; Sheppard East (which everyone seems to claim is just fine) is 17.5 (Don Mills to Meadowvale).

The 26 km/hr on Eglinton compares to the current 15.6 km/hr on Eglinton East (Yonge to Kennedy) and 16.5 km/hr on Eglinton West (Yonge to Renforth).

And that's assuming that the buses are on time!

Given the whole driver for Transit City is that congestion is supposed to get much worse in the next 10-15 years, I completely fail to see why some are fighting such a brilliant and relatively economic scheme!

 

[kEiThZ]

...because it's not necessarily brilliant and economical. Most of the gains of the TC LRTs come not from the LRT but from the right of way. We can have that using buses and bus lanes for a fraction of the cost.

And some of that data you are using is misleading. Take the Sheppard East bus from Don Mills and you'll see why. The average speed looks bad because it's slow till about Brimley (traffic is higher as you go west and there's that pocket of higher density in Agincourt). After that it's pretty quick. That's why I think the right model is subway + bus lanes. Subway for the dense portion and bus lanes for the rest.

 

[nfitz]

...because it's not necessarily brilliant and economical. Most of the gains of the TC LRTs come not from the LRT but from the right of way. We can have that using buses and bus lanes for a fraction of the cost.

What's a fraction though ... 99/100ths is a fraction ... 1/1000th is a fraction. Serious question really; what's the cost of BRT compared to LRT? The garage costs are similiar. The vehicle costs are more expensive by some estimates. The operating costs are higher. The ROW costs are lower ... but how much lower; there's still a lot of work to be done for a Kingston Road-style BRT.

And some of that data you are using is misleading.

Not intentionally! I try to be very even-handed when I throw numbers around.

Take the Sheppard East bus from Don Mills and you'll see why. The average speed looks bad because it's slow till about Brimley (traffic is higher as you go west and there's that pocket of higher density in Agincourt). After that it's pretty quick. That's why I think the right model is subway + bus lanes. Subway for the dense portion and bus lanes for the rest.

Fair enough ... with current traffic patterns. However traffic is supposed to worsen over the next 10-25 years. Places to Grow puts 1-million more people in the city, and growth continues in York and Durham. What is Sheppard east of Agincourt going to look like in 2025? Using history as a guide for the future, it will be gridlocked by then.

 

[unimaginative2]

This is actually a very good thing. Calmed traffic makes a street more attractive to pedestrians. Queen Street, College Street wouldn't have the same life to them if they were high speed roads.

Yeah. St. Denis, St. Laurent, the Danforth...they'd all be completely dead if it weren't for their streetcars.

What? I live along a streetcar line ... with the exception of some kind of accident (that has the cars blocked as well), I've never been able to walk faster than the streetcar, even for a couple of stops. It's quite typical to leave one stop, not see the streetcar behind you, and it's passed you before you get to the next stop; in rush-hour. There's certainly some pressure points, but they aren't the norm, and the transit-priority on the traffic lights has dealt with many of them.

I live along a streetcar line too. With a ROW, no less. I've walked faster than the streetcar on a number of occasions. My "favourite" moment was when I rode down the elevator with a person and then both walked over to Spadina. I caught the streetcar right away at the Front Street stop while she turned north to walk along Spadina. As we got to the Queen Street stop, I looked over to my astonishment and saw her walking past us.

To be clear, this was a normal day with normal weather and no, she wasn't running.

 

[nfitz]

I'll concede that Spadina is like molasses ... the stops/signals there need to be dealt with.

 

[unimaginative2]

Agreed. I find it astounding that despite the ROW, the lien seems to be even slower than most of the mixed-traffic routes.

My idea to partially fix Spadina (aside from getting the operators to actually try to stick to a headway) is to introduce a two-stage crossing like on University. Fast walkers will be able to make it in one stage anyway, but it would allow for shorter light cycles.

 

[nfitz]

My idea to partially fix Spadina (aside from getting the operators to actually try to stick to a headway) is to introduce a two-stage crossing like on University. Fast walkers will be able to make it in one stage anyway, but it would allow for shorter light cycles.

Ouch ... I don't think impeding pedestrians is the answer! I think the answer is a combination of signal priority for LRT (real priority, that anticipates the vehicle coming, and is almost always green when it comes), and longer vehicles with all-door loading - which would allow less frequent service.

Generally, I'm not in favour of reducing frequency by using larger vehicles ... but when the scheduled frequency is less than 2 minutes, the whole thing just breaks down, with bunching, and an inabilty to use signal priority efficiently. Increasing the frequency to 3 minutes or more would help speed up service.

 

[Tacoma]

...As for which attracts more riders, this UK Department for Transport study concludes that rail is more attractive to riders. There’s also “Impact on Transit Patronage of Cessation or Inauguration of Rail Service†by Tennyson, (Transportation Research Record 1221), which concludes "It is evident that rail transit is likely to attract from 34 percent to 43 percent more riders than will equivalent bus service." link

When they talk about 'light rail' I think they're referring to rail trains like the Scarborough LRT. This is not the same as streetcars that we're talking about here.

 

[threnody]

When they talk about 'light rail' I think they're referring to rail trains like the Scarborough LRT. This is not the same as streetcars that we're talking about here.

I don't think anyone would consider a grade-separated rapid transit line to be an "equivalent service."

 

[Tacoma]

I don't think anyone would consider a grade-separated rapid transit line to be an "equivalent service."

That was my point??

 

[threnody]

That was my point??

Look at the passage from MisterF you quoted. The study was comparing equivalent bus and rail-based services. If you follow the link you'll see that they are comparing LRT to BRT.