[4grand]

I asked this question a few years ago on Skyscrapercity.com and got ripped to shreds for some reason.

Driving a long Queen, and any streetcar line for that matter without a R.O.W., why is a bus not a better option?

Firstly, a street car takes up two lanes when it picks up/drops off passengers, a bus would only need to use one. This seriously slows down traffic.

Secondly, Buses can weave in and out of traffic. If something is obstructing a streetcar line, then the car can't move.

Is it simply to add character, or to save on fuel? I've never understood why streetcars clog up our streets, when a bus could do the same job, with a lot more pluses.

 

[drum118]

I asked this question a few years ago on Skyscrapercity.com and got ripped to shreds for some reason.

Driving a long Queen, and any streetcar line for that matter without a R.O.W., why is a bus not a better option?

Firstly, a street car takes up two lanes when it picks up/drops off passengers, a bus would only need to use one. This seriously slows down traffic.

Secondly, Buses can weave in and out of traffic. If something is obstructing a streetcar line, then the car can't move.

Is it simply to add character, or to save on fuel? I've never understood why streetcars clog up our streets, when a bus could do the same job, with a lot more pluses.

First off, a bus carries less riders than a streetcar.

Streetcar requires less drivers and that a large labour cost saving.

Streetcars are Green depending how you want to handle power source.

Streetcars have a smother ride.

Streetcars don't fail as much as the Orion VII do on route.

Steel wheels are prefer by most riders over rubber wheels.

Streetcars are cheaper to operate than buses.

Streetcars have a higher cost recover per rider.

Steel wheels add more land value as well increase development faster.

Streetcars will last 2-4 times longer than a bus depending how often buses are replace. TTC has been over 20 years, but other systems are moving to 12 years cycle. Some systems in the US have subway and PCC over 60 years in service today.

Streetcars can use 1 lane if on street parking remove and tracks move to the curb lane. Moving to the curb lane will have an impact how they turn onto other streets for turning.

As for labour lets look a 5,000 riders/hr.

A 40' bus using peak load of 50, you need 100 buses putting the headway 40 seconds. Will not take much to start a major bunching.

A CLRV carries 125 requiring 40 streetcars with a headway 1.5 minutes. That is 60 less drivers. When the new LRT's arrive, you will carry another 30 riders requiring 32 cars and 8 less drivers. Now, if you want to double the headway, you add a 2nd car that does not need another driver using the POP system.

Now, a driver is only doing 6hrs a day over 5 days, you need more drivers to cover the extra hrs of operation. Ratio is about 3.5/vehicle. 100 buses = 350 driver, 40 streetcars = 120 drivers for a saving of 230 drivers.

Up front cost will see buses beat streetcars hands down, but it is the back end cost where buses loose out and that this the most important area of operation.

Now you need support personnel to maintain those vehicles and more vehicles you have, more you going to need. At the same time, more supervisors will be needed to look after those vehicles on the road.

Centre of the road was chose as that is where wagons travel when horse were tied up in front of stores just like today cars. A number of systems move to curb lanes or on one side of the street as systems got built over time. Still happening today and We will see that one side operation in the coming year in a number of place in Toronto.

Riders cause a lot of traffic issue by not having their fare ready to board, refused to move to the rear. This also happens on buses also. All streetcars are high floor and will be until 2015 where most buses are low floor now allowing faster loading and off loading.

I have seen buses been block by traffic based on how they park.

I did a report back in 2004 on the 403 BRT using the figure of 25,000 riders provided by the EA and over 20 years going with an LRT from day One vs. BRT using 40', 60', double deck buses, LRT cost saving was about $250m not allowing for high fuel cost.

I did the same thing for the Queens Quay extension back in 2006 and LRT won hands down. To carries the ridership for a subway as some call for, you would only see 1 train every 20 minutes.

Buses, BRT, LRT, Subway and heavy rail all have their place. What you use depends on the ridership under true transit planning, not the whim of politicians.

Transit has been and still the whipping boy by the traffic planners and car folks as it easy to go after than those pesky cars.

Hope this help.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Buses are a better option. They don't block arteries, they move faster and they are cheaper to operate. Having said that, a streetcar is much more comfortable, essentially more environmental and adds something to the streetscape.

The only people that really tend to hate them are drivers from outside of the city.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Buses are a better option. They don't block arteries, they move faster and they are cheaper to operate. Having said that, a streetcar is much more comfortable, essentially more environmental and adds something to the streetscape.

The only people that really tend to hate them are drivers from outside of the city.

I have always found streetcars to be faster than buses. Buses have to slow down on narrow streets, while streetcars roll along at speed. Streetcars also stop traffic for the opposite traffic to make their left turns. For the number of passengers per vehicle, they are cheaper to operate. A automobile with only the driver is very expensive to operate in comparison with buses, and very, very expensive in comparison with streetcars.

 

[Whoaccio]

I don't know where people get the idea that streetcars are cheaper to operate than buses. It isn't true and it isn't supported by any data, TTC or external. You can quite clearly see that streetcar routes have cost recoveries which are more or less comparable to many Toronto bus routes. That is despite theoretical labor savings, theoretically cheaper energy costs, theoretically lower rolling resistance and running through areas with seven or eight times the ridership density. It also has implicit advantages like not counting streetcar's higher capital costs (both for the vehicles, and for the tracks). Studies by the GAO in the USA found that streetcars have no operational savings over bus routes. There is a reason why most cities, on every continent (Asia, N. America, Europe) have gotten rid of their streetcar networks either totally or to a large extent.

We are paying $1.2b for 204 new streetcars, or about $5.8m per vehicle. I'm a little unclear about the technical details of the new cars, but based on typical 30-35m trams in Europe, that means something like 60-70 seats. A typical 12.5m bus would have circa 39 seats, at a cost of $500-$700k. On a cost per seat basis, that implies around $80k per streetcar seat compared to about $12-18k per bus seat. Even if the streetcar lasts four times as long it wouldn't be worth it. Plus you have tracks at $3m/km, wires for god knows how much, and higher road repair costs due to thawing.

 

[madmolecule]

I have always found streetcars to be faster than buses. Buses have to slow down on narrow streets, while streetcars roll along at speed. Streetcars also stop traffic for the opposite traffic to make their left turns. For the number of passengers per vehicle, they are cheaper to operate. A automobile with only the driver is very expensive to operate in comparison with buses, and very, very expensive in comparison with streetcars.

One exception would be when there is something blocking the streetcar tracks, like an accident, or someone parking too close to the tracks in winter - in that case, a bus could go around.

 

[Tuscani01]

I live between 2 streetcar routes and try to avoid them as much as possible. Neither of them are on a ROW. I do prefer buses, but put the streetcar in a ROW and I will take it over a bus. I also like that the buses have AC, while the streetcars dont.

My final verdict, Bus > Streetcar.

 

[threnody]

I live between 2 streetcar routes and try to avoid them as much as possible. Neither of them are on a ROW. I do prefer buses, but put the streetcar in a ROW and I will take it over a bus. I also like that the buses have AC, while the streetcars dont.

My final verdict, Bus > Streetcar.

Of course if the bus was in the 70s, as most of the streetcar fleet was, it likely wouldn't have air conditioning either.

I would also question whether the problem is the fact that the two routes you avoid use streetcars, or whether they are just on streets that have more congestion. I guarantee that if you run a buses on Queen they're not going to move much faster than the streetcars. If you put streetcars on Ossington they'll likely move just as quickly as the buses do today.

 

[doady]

Question: In 2004, what were the two most profitable local surface routes in the GTA?

Answer: The 19 Hurontario in Mississauga and the 99 Yonge 'C' in York Region, both bus routes, with 115% and 95% cost recovery, respectively, on weekdays.

So cost recovery is obviously not one of the benefits of streetcar. Even considering Toronto alone the most profitable surface route is a bus route.

Streetcars are also more affected by obstructions and they cannot pass each other. So buses are far better in mixed traffic. But in its own ROW, streetcar may be better than buses because they are more slightly more comfortable. Low floor streetcars are superior to low floor buses in terms of capacity, because the wheels and the engine fo a low floor bus take up space. The comfort difference much greater between low floor articulate streecars and articulated buses, but the capacity difference is reduced. Unless of course the streetcar is longer than 18m then obviously there is no comparison, at least from a North American perspective.

Streetcars do have much larger price tag though, but perhaps they are easier and cheaper to maintain, especially compared to articulated buses. Mostly likely they have a longer lifespan to make up for the higher price tag, as the TTC's 30 year old LRVs suggest.

A/C is not issue. Lack of A/C is not an inherent feature of streetcar, not sure why that is even brought up...

Steel wheels vs rubber wheels? C'mon! The Montreal Metro has rubber wheels, so what? Just a good exampel fo the ridiculous arguments that are always presented in this debate.

 

[nstuch]

I can tell you for a fact that buses are WAY faster on Queen, as a result of the temporary replacement of 501 streetcars due to the reconstruction of the church/queen intersection a few weeks back. to get from Yonge to Woodbine took like 15 minutes less time. it was heavenly

I also question the economics of streetcars being supposedly cheaper. the TTC requires an army of inspectors with clipboards to maintain normal service on Queen alone and i'm sure other routes are the same. then there's the maintenance and replacement of the rails and overhead lines, constant cleaning of switches. if you could monetize the losses as a result of people being delayed due to streetcars being diverted and breaking down i'm sure buses would be way ahead

 

[Jonny5]

I can tell you for a fact that buses are WAY faster on Queen, as a result of the temporary replacement of 501 streetcars due to the reconstruction of the church/queen intersection a few weeks back. to get from Yonge to Woodbine took like 15 minutes less time. it was heavenly

I also question the economics of streetcars being supposedly cheaper. the TTC requires an army of inspectors with clipboards to maintain normal service on Queen alone and i'm sure other routes are the same. then there's the maintenance and replacement of the rails and overhead lines, constant cleaning of switches. if you could monetize the losses as a result of people being delayed due to streetcars being diverted and breaking down i'm sure buses would be way ahead

This has been asked and attempted to have be answered dozens of times. Ultimately, the only thing to come of it is proof that even if you know dozens of detailed bits of information about TTC operations and actual detailed figures about costs and wages, you still might not work it out.

But if you make simplistic anecdotal observations that don't acutally tell you anything helpful and translate them across the system, and have all kinds of "facts" you can make the answer be whatever you want.

Today I was on a bus stuck in a RIGHT hand turning queue at St. Clair for five light cycles. That never would have happened if Mt. Pleasant still had streetcar service. Proof streetcars are better than buses?

 

[Tuscani01]

Of course if the bus was in the 70s, as most of the streetcar fleet was, it likely wouldn't have air conditioning either.

I would also question whether the problem is the fact that the two routes you avoid use streetcars, or whether they are just on streets that have more congestion. I guarantee that if you run a buses on Queen they're not going to move much faster than the streetcars. If you put streetcars on Ossington they'll likely move just as quickly as the buses do today.

Well we are not in the 70's, and our streetcars don't have AC, which is why I choose bus over streetcar. If you had asked me this question in the 70's, when as you say buses didn't have AC, maybe my answer would be different. But its not the 70's so my answer stands.

As for which routes I avoid, I live in between Queen and Dundas, both congested routes hence why I do not use them. A lot of the time though, the streetcars are caught behind lines of cars making lefts while cars are freely moving by on the right. A bus would be moving along with the rest of the cars. Walking from where I live to the subway is often faster than the streetcar.

As for Ossington, my answer was based on what exists today, not hypothetical situations.

Therefore I still say bus > streetcar.

 

[nfitz]

Well we are not in the 70's, and our streetcars don't have AC, which is why I choose bus over streetcar.

Given that many of the buses still operating in Toronto built in the 1980s dont' have A/C either. I really can't understand the point of this post.

And even the buses that are older than 3 years (those 7000-series) frequently don't have functioning A/C ... and then they are far worse than a streetcar, as the windows are small, very high, and often no one bothers to open them, despite the heat.

Comparing 30-year old streetcars that never had A/C to the newest buses where the A/C hasn't broken yet, is an odd game. Let's see how those hybrids are doing in 20 years time ....

 

[gristle]

Buses are a better option. They don't block arteries, they move faster and they are cheaper to operate. Having said that, a streetcar is much more comfortable, essentially more environmental and adds something to the streetscape.

Buses can block traffic as well. They can also get stuck in traffic quite easily.

 

[kettal]

Firstly, a street car takes up two lanes when it picks up/drops off passengers, a bus would only need to use one. This seriously slows down traffic.

This is actually a very good thing. Calmed traffic makes a street more attractive to pedestrians. Queen Street, College Street wouldn't have the same life to them if they were high speed roads.