[unimaginative2]

Something is profoundly wrong with the cost of building subways in Toronto. We've gotten to the point where cost projections for new subway lines exceed $400 million per kilometre. Here is an article from the Gazette complaining about the supposedly high cost of new subway construction there. These are cost estimates for a multi-line extension plan currently in the works.

Métro tunnels cost a whopping $160 million per kilometre. The length of the three extensions would total 20 kilometres, which would mean a cost of $3 billion (about the same as the combined cost of Montreal's two new hospitals).

Source

If we could build 20 kilometres for $3 billion, it would mean the entire DRL, Shepaprd, SRT replacement combined and still have 5km left over. It's a lower cost per kilometre than the Eglinton light rail, which is mostly on the surface in the middle of the street.

 

[Fresh Start]

Yeah, Montrealers just don't know how good they've got it. All that's missing now after this are the metro extensions to Montreal Nord and Lachine and that system would be near completion.

 

[Jonny5]

On the other hand... building a hospital in Montreal costs $1.5 Billion!?

 

[unimaginative2]

Well, the length of time it's been taking has been pretty insane but they're gargantuan hospitals. Think of the equivalent of replacing all the UHN hospitals with one facility.

 

[Dan416]

Can we just contract out the building of our subways to the STM?

 

[unimaginative2]

Well this is nothing compared to Spain, for example. I just thought I'd present an example that is as directly comparable as possible (even though Spain's wages are as high as ours and their labour regulations and building sites are, if anything, more onerous) because people always throw up the "Oh but you can't compare--it's different over there" without going into any details.

 

[kettal]

I believe Ontario has very tough restrictions when it comes to excavation and soil disposal, adding to costs, and actually makes tunnelling more economical than cut & cover.

Montreal has small trains which are capable of squeezing into a single large tunnel, and the geologic conditions there are better for this style of tunnel too. Cost of expropriating real estate in Montreal are lower due to lower land values.

And most importantly, these cost estimates are probably low, and we can guarantee they will go over budget by a huge margin.

Disclaimer: the above statements might not be true.

 

[Chuck]

Suppose Toronto ideally needs about 50 km of new subway lines, including Eglinton, full DRL, Sheppard, and various short extensions. We've recently heard that gridlock costs the GTA $3.2 billion per year. Say that building 50 km of subway could cut the gridlock cost in half, given that obviously subways won't solve all of our traffic problems. Based on these assumptions, over the 20 years it might take to build the subway, the cost of not building the subway is $640 million per km.

Imagine if private citizens and businesses could submit a gridlock invoice to the province. This would include the cost of extra fuel, billable hours spent idling on the highway, and higher delivery charges. If that were the case, you can be sure we'd be seeing a lot more transit projects being built! Unfortunately, it is private citizens who must bear the cost of gridlock, whereas it is the province that must pay for infrastructure improvements.

 

[Dan416]

I believe Ontario has very tough restrictions when it comes to excavation and soil disposal, adding to costs, and actually makes tunnelling more economical than cut & cover.

Montreal has small trains which are capable of squeezing into a single large tunnel, and the geologic conditions there are better for this style of tunnel too. Cost of expropriating real estate in Montreal are lower due to lower land values.

And most importantly, these cost estimates are probably low, and we can guarantee they will go over budget by a huge margin.

Disclaimer: the above statements might not be true.

Geologic conditions in Montreal are better than here? I find that hard to believe. I really don't buy these geological conditons arguments. Land values, I'll accept that. But I don't know how big a factor it is.

 

[kettal]

Toronto is has a very soft mud soil with a high water table. There's a reason why it was once known as Muddy York.

 

[gweed123]

A few thoughts on why I think the cost of subways is so much higher here than in other parts of the world:

1) Cadillac stations: Let's face it, the stations on the Sheppard line are huge, and the ones on the Spadina extension just as big. Save the cathedral stations for elsewhere, or at the very most at strategic points along the line where they're actually needed (interchange stations, terminii, etc).

2) LRT vs subway: I know this is a hot topic, but I can't help but feel like LRT being 'in-style' at the moment has driven up the projections of subway costs in order to make them less appealing. It's the old, "oh, subways are too expensive, look at our 'projections'. We better just go with LRT instead, it's cheaper".

SIDEBAR: When TC was approved by council and agreed to be funded by the Province, its pricetag was $8 billion. It has since risen to $15 billion. I'm beginning to think that THAT'S why transit funding for the GTA was cut. $15B - $8B = $7B, we still got more out of it than what was approved (ie we're still getting $3B extra than what the Province approved). TC was low-balled, sold as a cheaper option, and then once it was approved, they nearly doubled the estimated cost, before a single shovel even hit the ground. I place the blame for this not on the province, but on the TTC, and especially its leaders.

 

[Ansem]

Can we just contract out the building of our subways to the STM?

This may be the biggest difference between Montreal and Toronto...

The STM (MOntreal) are not the one who build subway lines. The construction and digging are all contracted out by the Quebec government to the private sector. The best bids win the contracts.


To my understanding, the TTC build their own subway (am I right)?
If so, collective agremments, unions, overtime etc...there you go...
Maybe the construction of streetcar line and subways should be contracted out...You would be surprised how fast the cost per KM would drop...

 

[Agram]

No all construction done on subways is contracted out, we just do not have the expertise nor the machinery for such a job. The construction of extending one of our Carhouses for the new TR was handed out to a private company.

 

[nfitz]

To my understanding, the TTC build their own subway (am I right)?

You are absolutely wrong.

Of course Toronto's subways are contracted to the private sector. The best bids win the contracts. Why would one think otherwise?

The $160-million cost per kilometre is clearly underestimated. The last Montreal extension cost $150-million per kilometre (not including rolling stock) and started 8 years ago. Even if construction on the next extension started today, that would be an inflation rate of only 0.81%. In the construction industry, in Ontario at least, the inflation rate has been about 6 to 8% for the last decade or so.

There's a long history in Quebec of underestimating these construction costs to make them politically more acceptable. When the Laval extension was announced in1998, the cost was only estimated at $36-million per kilometre, and this had increased to $76-million per kilometre when construction started.

Clearly the same game is afoot.

As for the comments about Toronto's stations being over-designed ... whoever makes that comment in comparison to Montreal clearly hasn't seen Montreal's stations; particularly the newer ones, that make the Sheppard stations look pretty mundane.

 

[unimaginative2]

A few thoughts on why I think the cost of subways is so much higher here than in other parts of the world:

1) Cadillac stations: Let's face it, the stations on the Sheppard line are huge, and the ones on the Spadina extension just as big. Save the cathedral stations for elsewhere, or at the very most at strategic points along the line where they're actually needed (interchange stations, terminii, etc).

2) LRT vs subway: I know this is a hot topic, but I can't help but feel like LRT being 'in-style' at the moment has driven up the projections of subway costs in order to make them less appealing. It's the old, "oh, subways are too expensive, look at our 'projections'. We better just go with LRT instead, it's cheaper".

For your first point, Montreal's new stations are at least as elaborate as ours:

There is something to be said for your second point...

To my understanding, the TTC build their own subway (am I right)?

You are indeed correct. The TTC is its own project manager while in Quebec the government lets a contract for the entire project. The BC model simply gives a set of parameters to a private consortium (capacity, station locations, etc.) and they design the project as well.