[Paleo]

Something is profoundly wrong with the cost of building subways in Toronto. We've gotten to the point where cost projections for new subway lines exceed $400 million per kilometre. Here is an article from the Gazette complaining about the supposedly high cost of new subway construction there. These are cost estimates for a multi-line extension plan currently in the works.

If we could build 20 kilometres for $3 billion, it would mean the entire DRL, Shepaprd, SRT replacement combined and still have 5km left over. It's a lower cost per kilometre than the Eglinton light rail, which is mostly on the surface in the middle of the street.

A new downtown subway line (and others) for $3 billion? Seriously lowballing. Any new underground line through downtown will have to be far underground to avoid tall buildings on the surface. Given the disdain given by all of the people posting here about "cathedral" stations, I wonder what they would think about these "wasteful" stations. As mentioned Toronto has a high water table too. Compare similar conditions and situations to similar conditions and situations.

 

[kettal]

Any new underground line through downtown will have to be far underground to avoid tall buildings on the surface.

That's why subways will be going under roadways, not buildings.

 

[GregWTravels]

Wouldn't a DRL need to be pretty deep in the core anyway, to get underneath the PATH and existing Yonge and University lines?

 

[gweed123]

Wouldn't a DRL need to be pretty deep in the core anyway, to get underneath the PATH and existing Yonge and University lines?

In the downtore core yes, but beyond John in the west and Church in the east, it can even be done as cut and cover if needed. There are no PATH implications or significant underground parking lots in those locations. And I'm sure the pipes in these areas are due for a replacement anyway. I'm not saying CnC is the best option through there, but it is AN option.

 

[leopetr]

That's why subways will be going under roadways, not buildings.

The roadways are narrow. Queen and King are 20m wide. Compare Spadina at 36m and University at 45m. I suspect building foundations will be a big problem for DRL.

Avoiding building foundations is an argument for a Queen DRL alignment over King (adjoins First Canadian Place, Scotia Plaza) or Wellington (adjoins BCE place).

 

[Fresh Start]

Ever heard of a stacked tunnel?

 

[junctionist]

One thing I never understood was how Montreal ended up with a system of uniquely designed and most often attractive stations, while aesthetic considerations when building a major line like the Bloor Danforth line were apparently thrown out the window. Attractive stations are usually the first target of critics of subway projects, yet Montreal managed to build an inspiring system. Even the decent Spadina line stations in the 1970s had their public art cancelled at one point.

Montreal saves money in part by using narrower tunnels. Why can't we do that for lower demand subway lines like Sheppard and Eglinton?

 

[Translude15]

Regarding the Scarborough SRT's transition to a subway, is an above-ground subway not a viable option? The entire route of the SRT is above ground anyways, so the entire upgrade process would seem to be a fairly simplistic, cost-saving embarkment. Just replace the tracks, bring in some subway cars and voila.

I'm sure there are far more intricacies involved with the actual conversion, however replacing the SRT would surely serve as a starting point for subway expansion in the region. East of McCowan station there appears to be plenty of room for an extension towards U of T Scarborough even.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

People like to point to the lack of tiles on Sheppard as proof that 'no more can possibly be cut!' but that's silly. Bessarion didn't need a huge entrance hut with 3 automatic doors and thousands of square feet of mezzanine. Leslie didn't need an over 200m long underground station with 3 exits on the same street corner and a completely pointless bus terminal. The entire intersection of Bayview and Sheppard was excavated out and then they filled it all back in with mezzanines and made the station 100 steps deep. Would a triple platform really be necessary even if extended to Downsview? How much was the cost bumped up by keeping Yonge & Sheppard continuously open to traffic? On the other hand, though, Willowdale wasn't built. There is no one big thing that can be done to slash costs, but there are any number of small things, only the TTC/city isn't interested in doing much of anything, so no wonder the costs spiral upward. Scale creep and ever-increasing regulations and codes are worse offenders than inflation. Three access ramps to a gargantuan Steeles station requiring tens of millions of dollars in property acquisition? Not necessary, not even desirable. Running the entire Spadina extension underground? Dumb.

Regarding the Scarborough SRT's transition to a subway, is an above-ground subway not a viable option? The entire route of the SRT is above ground anyways, so the entire upgrade process would seem to be a fairly simplistic, cost-saving embarkment. Just replace the tracks, bring in some subway cars and voila.

I'm sure there are far more intricacies involved with the actual conversion, however replacing the SRT would surely serve as a starting point for subway expansion in the region. East of McCowan station there appears to be plenty of room for an extension towards U of T Scarborough even.

Gah, no.

You can't just do this and that and, voila, a subway. The SRT is on the ground, below it, and above it. How do you use Kennedy station and then get the subway onto the SRT corridor? A 90 degree turn? Either you rebuild Kennedy station diagonally in the hydro corridor or you loop around Lord Roberts somewhere. Either way, might as well run up Midland (which is probably the best alignment).

No extensions beyond STC are viable. Perhaps one stop in the McCowan/Bellamy area to access a bit of a yard and some park'n'ride lots and the Consilium cluster, but that's it...there's nothing beyond there. UTSC is nowhere near as big as people think it is.

 

[Translude15]

Gah, no.

You can't just do this and that and, voila, a subway. The SRT is on the ground, below it, and above it. How do you use Kennedy station and then get the subway onto the SRT corridor? A 90 degree turn? Either you rebuild Kennedy station diagonally in the hydro corridor or you loop around Lord Roberts somewhere. Either way, might as well run up Midland (which is probably the best alignment).

No extensions beyond STC are viable. Perhaps one stop in the McCowan/Bellamy area to access a bit of a yard and some park'n'ride lots and the Consilium cluster, but that's it...there's nothing beyond there. UTSC is nowhere near as big as people think it is.

As I stated in the second part of my post, I acknowledged the possibility of any number of complications with such a process, and linking the current subway to a possible extension at Kennedy station is obviously one of them. However, you never actually answered the question. Would such an above-grade expansion not be far less expensive than digging underground? If so, why hasn't such a project been aggressively pursued? It seems to me that this could potentially be a way to "get the ball rolling", on the whole subway building agenda. Just a thought.

 

[fanoftoronto]

The tracks that go parrellel to the GO tracks can be replaced for a subway extension (not including the 90 degree turn at kennedy) but the elevated sections would have to be rebuilt, or atleast upgraded since the running HRT would increase the load exerted on the pillars below. Another thing to keep in mind is that the stations would have to be extended and a few stations removed like Ellesmere since it's daily usage is only around 1800 or so. Still, it wouldn't be extremely expensive when compared to building a brand new subway line or extending one. Maybe $120-150 million per kilometre compared to the ~$290 million being spent on the Spadina subway extension.

 

[Dan416]

I don't think converting the SRT to subway is feasible. Building a brand new alignment while the SRT is still running is the most logical thing to do.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Agree totally. Either Kennedy would have to be turned about 40 or 50 degrees, or a complex km-wide underground loop structure built. Then, you'd need to rip out the SRT tracks, rip out the underpass after Ellesmere and replace it with one 2 or 3 times wider, and widen all the stations.
I'm quite sure there's an old railway ROW along a possible corridor mostly to STC. It's at least good cut 'n cover opportunity, and importantly can hit an easily developable area around Lawrence and Brimley. Compare that to the areas on the SRT, which are mostly ugly and quite undevelopable industrial lands. Also-also, getting to work on the B-D now on a different corridor would mean the SRT could keep functioning for as long as possible before the extension's finished.
Just wondering, does the SRT pose a barrier to double tracking on the Stouffville line? It seems to be tight (I may be forgetting if that part's already double tracked though.)

Thoughts on this thread topic: Yes, Toronto's subway costs are vastly, vastly overstated. Just look at Sheppard, with monolithic stations (some of them even in the literal Greek,) dual bored tunnels and totally unneeded bus bays and underground complexes. And that was only $200 million/km. Who's suggesting that costs shot up 80% in just the past decade? And even if they did, those costs could go way down just with sensible station design and/or raised guideways or cut and cover.

 

[Dan416]

If anything, the rising cost of subway construction to me indicates that we should build the subways while we can still afford to. Of course, if we don't, it'll come to the point that no matter how outrageously expensive they are, we won't be able to afford NOT to build any.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Politicians don't want to build subway coz they don't want another Sheppard stubway, which is what we'll get, never a completed subway! It's a miracle the Spadina subway extension got funding!