[Hipster Duck]

In Madrid they have subway construction down to a science
In China they have HSR construction down to a science
In Bogota they have BRT construction down to a science

In Vancouver and Calgary, they might not have gotten their transit construction down to a science but they do know how to build an ICTS system or an LRT in a timely, cost-effective manner. If you travel to those cities every 5-10 years, you can be sure that new extensions have opened up and that their politicians aren't using transit construction as a political football.

In Toronto, however, we excel at other things. These include: delay tactics, making excuses about why we are so special that we can't possibly implement the technology, withdrawing from long-term funding arrangements right after decade-long studies, etc.

 

[Asterix]

A few thoughts on why I think the cost of subways is so much higher here than in other parts of the world:

1) Cadillac stations: Let's face it, the stations on the Sheppard line are huge, and the ones on the Spadina extension just as big. Save the cathedral stations for elsewhere, or at the very most at strategic points along the line where they're actually needed (interchange stations, terminii, etc).

What are you specifically referring to by "cathedral stations"?

The stations are built by digging a big hole in the ground. If you don't fill it back in, it will be like a "cathedral". One would think it would be cheaper to not fill in the hole rather than spend the money to do so just so one can claim a more modest looking station.

 

[SimonP]

Subway construction is closely tied to the overall cost of living in a city. Major components of a subway budget are land purchases, wages, and freight costs. Such costs have been a lot cheaper somewhere like Madrid. Developed nations also tend to care about things like the environment and worker safety, which is a huge factor when comparing prices to China and India. At least we aren't faced with New York prices. The new line under Manhattan is costing 1.7 billion per km.

 

[Justin10000]

A blog article from Steve Munro gives a detailed description of the costs of building a subway in Madrid, compared to Toronto:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=738

 

[gweed123]

What are you specifically referring to by "cathedral stations"?

The stations are built by digging a big hole in the ground. If you don't fill it back in, it will be like a "cathedral". One would think it would be cheaper to not fill in the hole rather than spend the money to do so just so one can claim a more modest looking station.

The station comment was not in comparison to any city in specific. Yes, I know Montreal's stations are pretty big. I was just saying, compared to the stations on the original Yonge line, or even a lot of the Bloor-Danforth stations, the stations on the Sheppard line are huge. One has to think that that type of design has contributed to the larger subway costs.

 

[Asterix]

The station comment was not in comparison to any city in specific. Yes, I know Montreal's stations are pretty big. I was just saying, compared to the stations on the original Yonge line, or even a lot of the Bloor-Danforth stations, the stations on the Sheppard line are huge. One has to think that that type of design has contributed to the larger subway costs.

I'm talking specifically Toronto, not Montreal or anywhere else.

If you build a station by digging a big hole, is it cheaper to fill in the hole once you've built the station or to simply put a roof on it an have a big (cathedral) open space?

 

[Glen]

I believe Ontario has very tough restrictions when it comes to excavation and soil disposal, adding to costs, and actually makes tunnelling more economical than cut & cover.

Tunneling also requires soil to be 'disposed' of.

 

[rbt]

Tunneling also requires soil to be 'disposed' of.

A significantly smaller amount.

Cut/Cover would now require (new since Sheppard) every square inch of soil temporarily removed from the ground to be disposed of or treated and clean-fill purchased to replace it when refilling the gap between the tunnel top and the surface.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In the reports for the Spadina Subway extensions, they also mention the high water table in the area of the stations. That requires sump pumps, better waterproofing, and drainage. All adding to the costs versus if they could just stay on the surface.

 

[Fresh Start]

All adding to the costs versus if they could just stay on the surface.

Which they by and large can, it's running through new developments, not preexisting built-up areas. What gross negligent largesse spending with the public purse that TYSSE line's turning out to be. Then you wonder why transit expansion's sunk in this province for the next generation.

 

[kettal]

In the reports for the Spadina Subway extensions, they also mention the high water table in the area of the stations. That requires sump pumps, better waterproofing, and drainage. All adding to the costs versus if they could just stay on the surface.

Somebody remind me why this sinkhole-in-waiting was chosen to be Vaughan's downtown?

 

[GregWTravels]

Somebody remind me why this sinkhole-in-waiting was chosen to be Vaughan's downtown?

Good access to well water?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Good access to well water?

Unfortunately, the rain water is diverted into sewers and streams instead of allowing it to be filtered into the ground water. That is why in recent storms the rivers are overflowing because of the water rushing into them from roads and parking lots. If the rain water was allowed to puddle and slowly seep into the ground, there would be less flooding.

Which means that the underground subway will require larger sewers to make sure the unfiltered storm water does not flow into the train tunnels.

 

[Dan416]

If only we could borrow Spain's expertise in subway-building. I'm sure they could teach us a thing or two about how to do it affordably.

And the comment about NYC's new subway costing $1 billion per km. Isn't that a hint that we should build subways while we still can?

 

[gweed123]

Unfortunately, the rain water is diverted into sewers and streams instead of allowing it to be filtered into the ground water. That is why in recent storms the rivers are overflowing because of the water rushing into them from roads and parking lots. If the rain water was allowed to puddle and slowly seep into the ground, there would be less flooding.

Which means that the underground subway will require larger sewers to make sure the unfiltered storm water does not flow into the train tunnels.

This is why I'm a strong advocate for permeable paving options... Especially on highways, as they would help eliminate hydroplaning and flash freezes, which cause tonnes of accidents every year.