Admiral Beez
Superstar
I thought in this case it was to remove an underperforming, troublesome demographic from the regular system into a "special school" to the benefit of everyone else. Whoops, I forgot that's the secret motivation.
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Admiral Beez
Superstar
Oh come on, now we're killing school bullies? Why is it necessary to use an extreme example to defend your argument? Freedom of choice of course has legal limitations, but beyond that, such freedoms are criticals to living your life as you wish. That doesn't mean I'm throwing my children into the world unguided - instead I guide by example, treating others well, respecting myself and our family and friends, listening to others, and always keeping an open mind (which is why I've voted all over the map, for example).
Culture is what you make it. I'm an English-born immigrant, my wife is a Canadian of Ukranian descent. Our children are neither of these things. They will define their own culture, and throw off the parts they don't see as important (some of which they may embrace later as adults), and introduce new cultural elements.
rpgr
Active Member
That is not true. Multiculturalism is a facet of post-modern thinking. It's not a either/or statement. It is not about you're being either part of this culture or that culture. It's about blending things to your own taste and inclinations. The whole multicutural mosaic quilt analogy is not quite up to an explaination.
If your gonna think about how multiculturalism works, it's much better to think of it as a personally made smoothy. You can take the pre-made stuff and use as is or you take different ingredients and blend them till you get one that fits your personal tastes. What you have to remember though is that my 1 banana, 3 mangos, 1 scoop of ice cream vanilla flavour mix won't appeal to probably anyone else.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Thanks for the rehash Rgpr! I never said it's okay or not okay for anyone of any racial background to be aware that other races, cultures, perspectives exist in the world. The only hypocrisy stems from those with a sense of entitlement, those who feel privileged above other ethnicities because of the wealth their ancestors extracted from the homelands of said ethnicities. Even if that isn't the case, it is still socially accepted as taboo for non-whites to adopt white traits, while the opposite somehow makes makes the white person "kwel" among their non-white peers.
Like I said earlier blacks who aren't athletic, vocally-gifted, the class-clown, machismo or excessively bravado in dress and airs doesn't conform to the definition of black teens as constructed by society and more likely than not don't find their niche in life and dissociate. That is the reality faced by many non-white newcomers to Canada (North America). I think millions of people wish they could their lives the way they want to without fear of rejection, abandonment, exclusion or even retaliation. Sadly much of humanity's not quite that evolved yet to uphold "live and let live" in everyday situations.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Anyway I've come back here to post the following Toronto Star article which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that black-focused schools WILL work and denial of such programs is the truest segregatory act, not vice-versa.
Class teaches black students `my history'
Course offers glimpse of how proposed school would work
Dec 17, 2007 04:30 AM
Louise Brown
Education Reporter
They have learned how long it would take a runaway slave to walk to freedom from deep in the south.
A year.
"Now think how much longer it would take if you had children with you," prods the teacher. "Or if you lost your shoes wading through the river to throw bloodhounds off your scent."
Not a paper rustles; even the girl eating lunch at the back is fixed on the front.
In this unusual new "sold-out" class at a Scarborough high school, students are learning a new kind of history: African history.
As the Toronto District School Board debates trying an "African-centred" alternative grade school next year to battle the high black dropout rate, this course – and a dozen like it sprinkled through Toronto's 150 public high schools – provide a glimpse of how such a school might work.
"This is my history, miss. The first university in the world was in Timbuktu – in Africa!" gushes Karar Jafar, 18, who moved to Canada five years ago from Libya.
Adds classmate Tashauna Mullings: "I was curious to take this course; I'm in Grade 12 and I've never learned any of this stuff except a bit in Black History Month about Martin Luther King, Louis Armstrong and that black people were slaves, blah, blah, blah.
"What about black people from the Caribbean? What about black characters in the books we read?"
Making these links – using the past to understand the present – is the whole point, says teacher Nicole Aloise of Winston Churchill Collegiate, who proposed the idea last year as a way to engage black students who feel detached from mainstream curriculum.
Twice as many students wanted to enrol than could be accommodated. Two classes are planned for next year and Aloise hopes the education ministry will accredit the course for those who want to continue their education.
"I begged the guidance counsellor to get into this course when I heard about it," said Nathaniel Wilson, 17, who transferred to Winston Churchill this fall. "It's important to know about your history."
In a lesson on the legacy of slave songs, Aloise plays Bob Marley's haunting "Redemption" as students parse the lyrics for references to slavery.
Dashing from CD player to chalk board, the teacher with a master's degree in African studies explains to the iPod generation how many "negro spirituals" contained secret references to the Underground Railroad: "Wade in the Water" (to throw dogs off the trail), "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" (Underground Railroad); "Follow the Drinking Gourd" (a map north to freedom); "Amazing Grace" (penned by captain of a slave ship who felt remorse and became an abolitionist).
"A lot of you probably sung these songs in church," says Aloise – and a couple of students start singing.
Aloise's concern about a number of black students prompted her to suggest the course.
"I call them my Lost Boys, students who roam the halls disengaged from school, who don't go to class and may even have seen the wrong side of the law, but I thought if we gave them a course about their history maybe they'd get engaged.
"And they are. It may be the only class they come to, but they come. It's a start."
Not everyone in the class is black. A few white faces and at least one brown are among the 28 glued to the front. Aloise is black and the colleague who helps teach the course is white.
While parents who are pushing the board for a black-focused school have urged that it have as many black teachers and staff as possible as role models, the school board has said it would be open to students of all backgrounds.
"You don't have to be black to be interested in black history," says Shopiha Santhalingam, 16, who is Sri Lankan.
"Some Sri Lankans have been treated badly through history too; this is just really interesting stuff to learn."
What more evidence do you people need that this program is in no way demeaning, discriminatory, segregatory ?
?!!
Class teaches black students `my history'
Course offers glimpse of how proposed school would work
Dec 17, 2007 04:30 AM
Louise Brown
Education Reporter
They have learned how long it would take a runaway slave to walk to freedom from deep in the south.
A year.
"Now think how much longer it would take if you had children with you," prods the teacher. "Or if you lost your shoes wading through the river to throw bloodhounds off your scent."
Not a paper rustles; even the girl eating lunch at the back is fixed on the front.
In this unusual new "sold-out" class at a Scarborough high school, students are learning a new kind of history: African history.
As the Toronto District School Board debates trying an "African-centred" alternative grade school next year to battle the high black dropout rate, this course – and a dozen like it sprinkled through Toronto's 150 public high schools – provide a glimpse of how such a school might work.
"This is my history, miss. The first university in the world was in Timbuktu – in Africa!" gushes Karar Jafar, 18, who moved to Canada five years ago from Libya.
Adds classmate Tashauna Mullings: "I was curious to take this course; I'm in Grade 12 and I've never learned any of this stuff except a bit in Black History Month about Martin Luther King, Louis Armstrong and that black people were slaves, blah, blah, blah.
"What about black people from the Caribbean? What about black characters in the books we read?"
Making these links – using the past to understand the present – is the whole point, says teacher Nicole Aloise of Winston Churchill Collegiate, who proposed the idea last year as a way to engage black students who feel detached from mainstream curriculum.
Twice as many students wanted to enrol than could be accommodated. Two classes are planned for next year and Aloise hopes the education ministry will accredit the course for those who want to continue their education.
"I begged the guidance counsellor to get into this course when I heard about it," said Nathaniel Wilson, 17, who transferred to Winston Churchill this fall. "It's important to know about your history."
In a lesson on the legacy of slave songs, Aloise plays Bob Marley's haunting "Redemption" as students parse the lyrics for references to slavery.
Dashing from CD player to chalk board, the teacher with a master's degree in African studies explains to the iPod generation how many "negro spirituals" contained secret references to the Underground Railroad: "Wade in the Water" (to throw dogs off the trail), "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" (Underground Railroad); "Follow the Drinking Gourd" (a map north to freedom); "Amazing Grace" (penned by captain of a slave ship who felt remorse and became an abolitionist).
"A lot of you probably sung these songs in church," says Aloise – and a couple of students start singing.
Aloise's concern about a number of black students prompted her to suggest the course.
"I call them my Lost Boys, students who roam the halls disengaged from school, who don't go to class and may even have seen the wrong side of the law, but I thought if we gave them a course about their history maybe they'd get engaged.
"And they are. It may be the only class they come to, but they come. It's a start."
Not everyone in the class is black. A few white faces and at least one brown are among the 28 glued to the front. Aloise is black and the colleague who helps teach the course is white.
While parents who are pushing the board for a black-focused school have urged that it have as many black teachers and staff as possible as role models, the school board has said it would be open to students of all backgrounds.
"You don't have to be black to be interested in black history," says Shopiha Santhalingam, 16, who is Sri Lankan.
"Some Sri Lankans have been treated badly through history too; this is just really interesting stuff to learn."
What more evidence do you people need that this program is in no way demeaning, discriminatory, segregatory ?
?!!
H
Hydrogen
Guest
So if it's printed in the Toronto Star, its gotta be true!
"Glimpse," "might?" Wow, those are definitive descriptions for the success of something that has yet to happen.
Of course, it wasn't a university - which is a legal entity - but we wouldn't want to let facts get in the way of feeling good.
The trouble is that this is the reconstruction of history according to the beliefs and biases of someone else. It suffers from exactly the same short-commings used to attack other history curriculums.
All "black" backgrounds? All backgrounds? Does this mean it would be just like the existing public schools that are already open to everyone?
Interesting that so much emphasis has been placed on slavery and bad treatment. I can't imagine how instilling a sense of overwhelming victimhood is going to be helpful to these kids. There is nothing that can be done about the past.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
There's a huge difference between an African History course in a public school and an entire school designed just for black students. I think our world history programs in high school are extremely weak, and we should have history courses from all over the world. African Canadians are far from the largest demographic group, and Chinese history, Indian history, etc. could also be very popular.
I should add that African and perhaps Caribbean history would be rather more relevant to most Black Torontonians than Black American history.
I should add that African and perhaps Caribbean history would be rather more relevant to most Black Torontonians than Black American history.
Disparishun
Active Member
See, this is a prime example of why we need to establish more public schools with South-Asia-centric curricula. If such schools existed, the South Asian cultural heritage would be better appreciated, and so the glories of Nalanda University could reverberate in young ears once again.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Why so much emphasis on this one trivial quote from the entire article? Are South Asians stereotypically stupid the way the media portrays blacks or are they not praised for their intellect? Does it offend you that some people believe the Dark Continent valued higher learning before anywhere else?
How does boosting the morale of youth who otherwise are "Lost Boys, students who roam the halls disengaged from school, who don't go to class and may even have seen the wrong side of the law" a bad thing? Are we not trying to construct positive sentiments about the black communtity in ways the public, pluralist system has failed up to now to accomplish?
Most notably this is being proposed for a region that's over 50% non-white and 80% born outside Canada. It's not like we're telling small town Alberta to do this. I have no problem endorsing ethnocentric courses of all stripes if it means everyone has a more comprehensive and varied perspective of the backgrounds of all students they attend school with, be friends with, etc. It isn't imprinting negative connotations on anyone to broaden their horizons instead of disengaging from a history that technically isn't theirs right?
Go tell that to the grandchild of a Holocaust victim or exiled Arcadian or genocided Native or bombed Hiroshiman and see how they like it
.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Okay, I'll tell you first hand.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
You know DENTROBATE54, you haven't had said anything positive or in agreement with any of the other posters in this thread. Either everyone else here holds completely contrary views to your own, or you're simply looking to debate and argue anything anyone other than yourself writes.
In my years now at UT, my experience shows me that there are those posters who simply post to get their view on the screen. They're not there to consider other points of view, nor are they willing to consider a complete change of their own views. This group, I suspect includes yourself. Now I'm not the MOD, so as they say in the East Coast, fill your boots, and carry on. I just wanted to pass on that we're starting to catch on.
In many cases I find myself completely throwing out my view on a subject when someone else has convincingly approached the subject here on UT. It's always good to have an open mind.
In my years now at UT, my experience shows me that there are those posters who simply post to get their view on the screen. They're not there to consider other points of view, nor are they willing to consider a complete change of their own views. This group, I suspect includes yourself. Now I'm not the MOD, so as they say in the East Coast, fill your boots, and carry on. I just wanted to pass on that we're starting to catch on.
In many cases I find myself completely throwing out my view on a subject when someone else has convincingly approached the subject here on UT. It's always good to have an open mind.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Why is a whole new school required for a course? There are plenty of courses in the current schools and it would be easy to add more. You don't need a whole new school to teach one black history course... and why is it a black history course and not an African history course? One course is not a glimpse of a black school... it doesn't show how "black math" or "black science" will differ from mainstream math and science nor does it explain how some black people currently succeed nor does it explain how people who supposedly needed to be surrounded by people with similar skin tones will succeed after graduating considering there is no "black TD bank", "black Air Canada", "black hospital", "black courts", etc.
rpgr
Active Member
Admiral Beez
Superstar
It's more than histpru, we need to teach Ebonics too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EbonicsYou've got to love those two Jive Dudes on Airplane...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes
Disparishun
Active Member
You're kind of changing the subject, aren't you?
Sure, there's your insulting and out-of-nowhere accusation of racism -- in response to which, the erroneous but honest belief that the Sankoré madrasah was the world's first university (heck, it wasn't even Africa's) is hardly the same thing as the chauvinistic belief that "the Dark Continent (sic) valued higher learning before anywhere else". You really shouldn't put words in people's (in this case, an 18-year high school student's) mouths like that.
But, more fundamentally, you're avoiding the question altogether. Why is it that only those who pass your two-part test -- they have to be (1) a racial minority and (2) "stereotypically stupid", I think you put it -- deserve schools in which to ground their learning in their heritages and ancestral cultures? Do South Asian Torontonians really need to start failing school in large numbers before you would grant them the rights that you would extend to Black Torontonians? Do Portuguese Torontonians really not get the right that you would extend to Black Torontonians because their ethnic community does not pass your skin colour test?
Go tell that to the grandchild of a Holocaust victim or exiled Arcadian or genocided Native or bombed Hiroshiman and see how they like it
Erm, okay, I'll tell you firsthand, too.
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