[jks]

jks:



The moment they said power off I could have guessed it was a jumper. Funny the station TVs kept on insisting the stretch was closed due to "flooding" at Dufferin station, even after the line re-opened. Talk about useless info.

AoD

Are you sure they didn't mean Union Station was flooded?? Because during the entire time, it said that elevators at Union weren't working because of flooding. It's funny because there was literally no water anywhere at Union.

 

[junctionist]

It's a frill. People being deliberately pushed onto subway tracks is extremely rare (and thank heavens for that). Where there's a will, there's a way. Somebody will always find some way to throw someone in front of a train. Ellis Portal comes to mind (just north of Bloor station). It's a useless expense because people will just find another way to accomplish the same thing.

People get pushed, people fall, people try to take their own life, and fires start because of garbage. When you add up the resources needed for dealing with these incidents and the disruption it causes, as well as loss of productivity, and multiply it by years, it surely is a substantial amount. The police, the buses, the management resources, the time off drivers take to deal with trauma and the additional strain on the roads of the additional bus traffic aren't free. If the technology exists for ameliorating the service, let it be implemented (slowly if budgets are tight).

 

[Kitsune]

Are you sure they didn't mean Union Station was flooded?? Because during the entire time, it said that elevators at Union weren't working because of flooding. It's funny because there was literally no water anywhere at Union.

I would imagine all that water likely fried the Elevators internal computer.

 

[dunkalunk]

Don't stations have cameras?

 

[khris]

In that case, we should put platform doors on every streetcar platform and bus bay, too.

A subway train can not stop nearly as fast as a bus or streetcar can, so that would not be needed, as people don't really jump or get pushed in front of buses or streetcars like they do on subways.

Isn't this more of a Toronto Issue, rather than a discussion of transportation or infrastructure?

 

[oreoshack]

getting pushed onto the subway tracks onto an oncoming train is one of my worst fears. i always find myself looking back to see who is behind me whenever i see the subway lights peek out of the tunnel.

 

[cacruden]

getting pushed onto the subway tracks onto an oncoming train is one of my worst fears. i always find myself looking back to see who is behind me whenever i see the subway lights peek out of the tunnel.

It is always a good idea to be aware of your surroundings, there are deranged people out there. It was obviously an intentional act, no different than pushing someone in front of a car on the street (it does not matter how fast something stops, there is always a delayed reaction time to surprises) - or randomly shooting/stabbing someone (there is always a way for deranged people to accomplish the same task). If you are pushed early onto the tracks, there are several places that you can seek shelter (side, or flat on the ground in the middle) -- panicking just makes things worse. Doors on new subway construction is a good idea, retrofitting existing platforms can be done - but probably should be done as part of increasing overall efficiency (mostly suicides, automation).

 

[AKS]

The protective doors are also good for other reasons too. For instance people trying to rush in and try to catch the train before the door closes. That's pretty dangerous too. Also it might help prevent some other issues such as animals getting hurt. Once I notice a guy who walked in with his dog following him, but the door was about to close. I think his dog's tail got caught or did get got caught between the door. He yelled and screamed at the TTC staff. If there was a second set of doors, not sure if that would have helped. Close one set of doors before closing another?

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Man pushes teens into path of Toronto train
JOSH WINGROVE
Globe and Mail Update
February 14, 2009 at 8:30 AM EST
TORONTO — A man is in custody and facing three attempted murder charges after an unprovoked attack on a group of teenagers at a subway station Friday left two youths on the tracks, in the path of an oncoming train.

Five boys, 15 and 14, were on the Dufferin Station platform when a man approached them — apparently without provocation — and shoved three of them, sending two off the ledge at 4:50 p.m. ET.

The suspect was known to police, Toronto police Constable Tony Vella said.

"We're still trying to figure out exactly what the motive was," he said.

The boys were left on track level, about a third of the way into the station as an eastbound train pulled in.

The driver of the approaching train saw them and hit the brakes, TTC spokesman Brad Ross said. As the heavy train slowed, the 14-year-old boy rolled out of the way, under the platform, and pulled the older boy back with him as the train bore down. Neither touched the electrified bar.

The second boy — Jacob Greenspon, the son of Edward Greenspon, the Globe and Mail's editor-in-chief — was partially struck, his left foot trapped under the second car of the subway by the time it ground to a halt.

The injured boys were shaken up and taken to the Hospital for Sick Children. Jacob Greenspon suffered minor injuries to his foot.

"It's an incredible trauma to suffer to be pushed in front of a train like that, and we're extremely grateful they were not killed," Mr. Ross said. "I can't imagine what they must be going through."

The other three boys were left on the platform, as the man started to flee.

As passersby tried to help the two trapped boys, the three other teens chased the suspect.

A TTC collector tried to stop him but the man pushed him away and ran outside. Soon afterward he was tackled by the TTC collector with the help of another witness, and held until police arrived. The man under arrest fought back, and will now face assault charges for his actions against the TTC collector and the Good Samaritan.

"It could have been much worse, but fortunately, it wasn't," Constable Vella said.

Adenir DeOliveira, 47, of Toronto, will appear in court today at Old City Hall to face the five charges.

As emergency crews came, the three boys who were not trapped ran back to the platform. One pulled a lever to kill power to the train, while the other two hushed the crowd to make sure their friends were okay and could hear them.

"All working together," Constable Vella said. "It was great thinking."

It's not thought the assailant knew the teens. "I highly doubt [the boys] knew him. I would be flabbergasted," Sergeant John Dubreuil said.

He praised the five teenagers, aged 14 and 15.

"These kids are absolutely brilliant," he said. "For 14 years old, I'm very impressed."

 

[Railization]

A subway train can not stop nearly as fast as a bus or streetcar can, so that would not be needed, as people don't really jump or get pushed in front of buses or streetcars like they do on subways.

Isn't this more of a Toronto Issue, rather than a discussion of transportation or infrastructure?

Streetcars cannot stop fast. Streetcar and subway take about the same amount of time to stop relative to their weight and braking power, since both are steel wheels on steel rails. The ALRVs are particularly difficult to drive for operators because of their braking distance. This is why streetcars often don't "gun it" down the street like buses sometimes do, it's because they need to be able to stop in time and need the braking distance.

The argument stands though, it is just as easy to get pushed in front of a streetcar as a train. Since someone mentinoed getting pushed in front of cars, maybe we should put barriers along all sidewalks to keep cars and pedestrians safely segregated at all times except at designated crossings, too, since we're all concerned about safety!

As you can see, the safety argument really doesn't fly. Platform doors are not worth the investment for either new or old stations.

 

[Railization]

With all this talk about safety, I'm surprised people aren't clamouring for airport-style security at the faregates since we've had both a stabbing and a shooting on the subway within about a month's timespan (and no, I don't support airport-style security at subway stations at all, I don't want to turn Toronto into a police state).

 

[whatever]

Streetcars cannot stop fast. Streetcar and subway take about the same amount of time to stop relative to their weight and braking power, since both are steel wheels on steel rails.

Yes, but stopping time is a function of weight, braking power, and speed. Because streetcars do not travel as quickly as subways their actual braking time is not nearly so long as a train. It's misleading to look just at the relative rates because those rates aren't applied in the same way

 

[cacruden]

With all this talk about safety, I'm surprised people aren't clamouring for airport-style security at the faregates since we've had both a stabbing and a shooting on the subway within about a month's timespan (and no, I don't support airport-style security at subway stations at all, I don't want to turn Toronto into a police state).

Airport-style security only works around one third of the time. Any intelligent terrorist organization would place workers in restaurants past security, a lot of cleaning and cooking supplies would provide all the weaponry that you would really need to take down several airliners. Not to mention, screeners will not pick up a lot of stuff that can be snuck through right under their noses (you just have to see the "tests" done by organizations that have embarrassed the airport security organizations).

It is actually something I think is funny about public transit here in Thailand. There are detectors that you have to walk through to get on the subway here, and they have a wand based metal detectors, and bag searches. The skytrain is less obvious, security only checks people that have bags -- if they are not busy doing something else (there is usually a desk on the other side of the gate, but not a security scanner/line). When I enter shopping centers, some have wands, some have metal detectors to walk through etc. I even had it for a short while the day following the New Years Eve bombing a few years ago (I walked by one of the bombs 20 minutes before it went off) at the place I stayed at, and some of the 5 star hotels had a mirror to run under the vehicle to look for improvised explosives.... of course it was all just to make the guests feel secure. When I walked through the detector on the way in, they took all my shopping bags and passed them around the detector without looking into it. My sister has some experience with the mirrors for checking under the car, she had some training to use it to check her car when she was posted in Iraq - her view was that even with the training she was not sure that she would really be able to spot a properly constructed explosive - and there is no way that the guards that had the equipment the following day - had enough training to know what they were looking at.

Basically, security like this serves only to make those wanting to do something think about getting caught - but if they are determined - odds are they will get through the security. Most of it is really just a confidence game, give those people using it the false hope that there is security.

 

[junctionist]

The argument stands though, it is just as easy to get pushed in front of a streetcar as a train. Since someone mentinoed getting pushed in front of cars, maybe we should put barriers along all sidewalks to keep cars and pedestrians safely segregated at all times except at designated crossings, too, since we're all concerned about safety!

As you can see, the safety argument really doesn't fly. Platform doors are not worth the investment for either new or old stations.

The amount of people using the subway justifies the expenditure. When these incidents happen on the subway, every subsequent train must be emptied at a particular and all the riders forced onto shuttle buses. The problems with this are serious and costly, because the critical high capacity subway network is taken out of service and replaced with buses, which aren't particularly plentiful or of high capacity.

The high capacity and grade separated nature of the subway system is what sets it apart from ordinary roads and the streetcar system. This is why incidents on the subway are more common and problematic than on streets.

 

[rbt]

The amount of people using the subway justifies the expenditure. When these incidents happen on the subway, every subsequent train must be emptied at a particular and all the riders forced onto shuttle buses. The problems with this are serious and costly, because the critical high capacity subway network is taken out of service and replaced with buses, which aren't particularly plentiful or of high capacity.

Platform doors will be installed but there is a rather sizable number of prerequisites:

* Automatic train control and upgraded signals. Already over $1B into this over the last 15 years and looks like another $324M to go for Yonge line.
* Upgraded fire ventilation ($322M)
* Exclusive use of trains with Automatic train control installed. Toronto Rockets will be configured this way but retrofitting is likely possible as well.

Once all 3 of those are done then doors can and probably will be added to older stations. So, perhaps shortly after the Spadina extension opens this addition will be considered.